Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[xyrandomyx]

I'd much rather dive with the 100 dive OW than the 10 dive AOW. In fact I'd probably rather dive with a 100 dive OW than even a 50 dive AOW.

Except for a few that take to diving very naturally or those that were fortunate to have very very excellent training I think many divers start to become decent divers from 50 - 100 dives regardless of how many or how few certs they got in those first 50 dives.

Hrm. I once spoke to a DM who said she'd rather dive with a newly-certified OW diver than the 100-dive vacation divers she often had in the group. '100 dives' sounded good, until she realised they were over a 12-year period or so. She said the newly-certified OW divers at least had the course fresh in their minds and didn't think they were experienced and knew what they were doing.

Anyway, my point is: I don't think there's any simple metric for determining how good a diver's going to be. Certifications certainly aren't it; and not all experience is equal.

 

[AfterDark]

OP, if more dive ops were like the one you talked with, I wouldn't be out $300.00 for an AOW course that I didn't need except to show the C-Card to C-Card fans. Don't do anything you're not comfortable with, dive safe, live to dive another day.

 

[Rhone Man]

I personally divide dive operators into three informal categories:

#1 - operators who for liability and insurance reasons treat all divers like brain damaged six year olds.
#2 - operators who play by the rules, but once they are comfortable with your skills and experience, are happy to let out the line.
#3 - "No cave certification? No problem!"

As an informal guide, the further away you get from North America, the further down the list you tend to find yourself. I cannot recall once being asked to produce a certification card once I was further than 4,000 miles away from the USA. When I was in Micronesia, I remember guides regularly taking divers as young as 10 and 11 on wreck penetration dives below 100 feet (they may have been young, but they were hellacious good divers... plus they always had 2,000 PSI left at the end of the dive). Category #1 ops irritate me, but if you live in a highly litigious society, I can't blame them for conforming.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That's why they should require 50 dives minimum before you can take AOW and 100 dives minimum before you can take rescue. Sure there would be some bitching from some divers, but at least the AOW card would mean a little bit more.

Unless the AOW course was beefed up and imparted totally new skills and knowledge it would still mean nothing. Some of us have minimum requirements for the AOW classes that we have created ourselves that do exactly that. And the instructor, not the agency, is the best judge of who is ready.
Your rescue requirement is completely ridiculous. Unless you put several rescue skills in the OW class like NAUI and SEI have. AOW before rescue is likewise not something I'd ever require of a diver. There is no need for them to have a deep dive or even an underwater nav dive as a prerequisite for rescue. Rescue is as much, if not more, about preventing accidents as it is about responding to them. By your standards if a dive buddy pair with twenty dives comes upon a non responsive diver on the bottom, or a panicked diver on the surface they are not supposed to yet have the skills and knowledge to deal with that? Rubbish.
They are also not supposed to have the awareness to spot an accident waiting to happen in the case of a small thin diver putting on thirty pounds of lead? Horse pucky.
Or they are not supposed to know how to set up an evac zone, communicate necessary info to ems, or get someone on O2?
I hope I never have to dive with anyone you train.
There are divers that do not ever want to go deeper than 30 feet. They only want to dive warm, clear, shallow water. They don't want to go farther than they can see from the boat. Because they will likely be on boats with those who only dive once or twice a year on vacation, these are the divers who, IMO, need to have a rescue class as soon as possible after OW. Making them wait is just adding to the risk for themselves and everyone else on the boat.
I'd like to see a rescue refresher requirement every two years. I know I'll be offering one for that purpose. Just as I have to renew my cpr/first aid divers, who are in a more risky environment, should realize that a rescue class should not be something that is put off due to some ridiculous number of dives requirement and is something they need to keep up with.
100 dives for rescue? That's crazy.
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[MXGratefulDiver]

I personally divide dive operators into three informal categories:

#1 - operators who for liability and insurance reasons treat all divers like brain damaged six year olds.
#2 - operators who play by the rules, but once they are comfortable with your skills and experience, are happy to let out the line.
#3 - "No cave certification? No problem!"

As an informal guide, the further away you get from North America, the further down the list you tend to find yourself. I cannot recall once being asked to produce a certification card once I was further than 4,000 miles away from the USA. When I was in Micronesia, I remember guides regularly taking divers as young as 10 and 11 on wreck penetration dives below 100 feet (they may have been young, but they were hellacious good divers... plus they always had 2,000 PSI left at the end of the dive). Category #1 ops irritate me, but if you live in a highly litigious society, I can't blame them for conforming.

I was asked to produce a c-card in the Maldives ... and that's about as far from the USA as you can get and still be on this planet. I think it really boils down to the individual dive op.

And I'm with Jim on Rescue ... this isn't something you want to put off due to dive count. Rescue skills should start being taught at the OW level, and continue progressively as you take follow-on classes. Basic rescue skills do not require any diving skill beyond what's taught at the OW level. Rescue is as much about teaching you how to help someone else as it is about teaching you how to avoid being the person who needs help. Both are important at any level of diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[D_B]

Sorry for jumping into thread and only responding on the statement that you should have X number dives before taking AOW and/or Rescue

Rescue will make you a safer, more thinking diver .. it did for me with only 16 OW dives to my name
Question raised here by stating you need X number of dives before taking it is ... just when do you think it is time to be a safer diver?

(and I applaud those instructors I've seen that offer refresher rescue training , sometimes at little cost)


Wookie .. Yours sounds like a great operation run professionally and with logic and care .. I want to dive with you someday

 

[phoenix31tt]

i want to do rescue as soon as possible for that very reason, everybody i've known that did rescue says its an invaluable course and will certainly make you a more aware and safer diver... i would certainly not want to go through 100 dives before i have the opportunity to do so...

as for AOW... i suppose its really up to the instructor and the individual as to why they are doing AOW... i did AOW because i wanted an opportunity to learn more and practice skills WITH an instructor helping... even doh i often dive with my instructor as a guide it pays to have that 1-1 attention when actually training... i could care less about going to 100' in my region.. most of the good stuff is at 60-70 anyways

 

[Mike]

I guarantee you, if I took a diver with 100 dives and a diver with 15 dives, put them through rescue, then 6 months later tested them, the 15 dive diver won't have 10% of the recall of the 100 dive diver, the 15 dive diver didn't even have his own buoyancy under control yet and was doing advanced buoyancy procedures such as lifting a unresponsive diver off the bottom.

As I said

Sure there would be some bitching from some divers, but at least the AOW card would mean a little bit more.

which has already been demonstrated by 4 people since posting that.

If AOW meant something, meaning you could actually fail it, that would be a good start. But the dive agencies want all diving classified as non-technical to be FUN. The fact that a resort course exists to me is one of ugliest things about diving. That thing alone sets the tone of diving is nothing to take seriously for everybody that takes it between the wet T-shirt contest at 9:00 am and the pool volley ball game with jello shots to the winner at 2:00pm at Sandals.

 

[D_B]

Of course the person with more dives would probably remember more , and I would love to take a refresher class
.. but if you already have the basic diving skills down as I did have, why would waiting to be a safer diver be a better idea?

Edit .. my instructor passes or fails me, not his agency

 

[Wookie]

That thing alone sets the tone of diving is nothing to take seriously for everybody that takes it between the wet T-shirt contest at 9:00 am and the pool volley ball game with jello shots to the winner at 2:00pm at Sandals.

You got the times a little messed up. The volleyball game is at 11 AM, and the wet t-shirt contest is at 4 PM. No-one is awake at 9 AM.