Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[farsidefan1]

Yes we are AOW certified and no, we did not do the Deep Dive specialty.

I am not looking to have my hand held. I am looking to go on dives that we enjoy that are consistent with our skills and training. I thought it was suspicious that the operator would say that they might lead us on deep dives without that training. Do you?

- Bill

No I do not find it suspicious at all. I see nothing amiss. If you don't want to do a dive don't do the dive. That is always your call but I see nothing out of line with the operators position.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Some boat charters or shops that charter the boats would require AOW because of supposedly "liability". What liability? We signed liability waivers to the boat and to the shop that charters the boat.

If a waiver provided absolute immunity from all harm, a dive op wouldn't need liability insurance. The fact is, someone can sue the dive op if they want to, whether they signed a waiver or not. If the dive op is sued, the dive op wants the insurance company to foot the bill for their defense. If the dive op is unwilling to comply with the insurance company's requirements, such as showing <cough, cough> "advanced" certification, the insurance company won't insure the dive op.

I had a couple of DMs (instructors who moonlighted as DMs) telling me that they'd be safe diving with a 10-dives AOW holder than a 100-dives OW holder. You gotta be kidding me?

I suppose I can see a grain of logic in this sort of thinking. Divers who take courses beyond OW probably tend to be conscientious types rather than reckless types.

 

[Tigerman]

Or they might be insecure types that shouldnt be diving, let alone without an instructor by their side...
Really, theres no telling what kinda person you are based on a cert alone - or the lack of one. Theres people on this board who have thousands of dives and no certs at all, are they just reckless hillbilly cowboys?
Or maybe there wasnt any certs or formal training when they started diving..

 

[fnfalman]

If a waiver provided absolute immunity from all harm, a dive op wouldn't need liability insurance. The fact is, someone can sue the dive op if they want to, whether they signed a waiver or not. If the dive op is sued, the dive op wants the insurance company to foot the bill for their defense. If the dive op is unwilling to comply with the insurance company's requirements, such as showing <cough, cough> "advanced" certification, the insurance company won't insure the dive op.

Liability insurance is to cover their screw-ups, and not the divers' screwups. The sport is a "self-regulated" sport, and that's just fancy speak for no formal regulations. That's why we have OW cert cards that are not sanctioned by a GOVERNMENTAL agency. All the boat owners/shops/charters have to do is to refer to the OW training in court or arbitration about the portion where the various dive organizations mentioned about not diving outside of your training.

I suppose I can see a grain of logic in this sort of thinking. Divers who take courses beyond OW probably tend to be conscientious types rather than reckless types.

Sorry, I'll take a highly experienced diver over one who has another five guided dives under his or her belt.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suppose I can see a grain of logic in this sort of thinking. Divers who take courses beyond OW probably tend to be conscientious types rather than reckless types.

Not necessarily ... by far the #1 reason why someone wants an AOW cert is so they can gain access to deeper sites. Rarely do they think to ask if they're actually ready to dive those sites ... either before or after AOW is completed. All too often they're given the impression that they're ready whether they are or not ... usually by virtue of receiving a card that says they are.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not necessarily ... by far the #1 reason why someone wants an AOW cert is so they can gain access to deeper sites. Rarely do they think to ask if they're actually ready to dive those sites ... either before or after AOW is completed. All too often they're given the impression that they're ready whether they are or not ... usually by virtue of receiving a card that says they are.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm sure you're right. I was just trying to come up with something that might explain what the DM in @fnfalman's anecdote had in mind when he said he'd rather dive with a 10-dive AOW diver than a 100-dive OW diver.

 

[fnfalman]

I'm sure you're right. I was just trying to come up with something that might explain what the DM in @fnfalman's anecdote had in mind when he said he'd rather dive with a 10-dive AOW diver than a 100-dive OW diver.

That's because she's an instructor with a shop that chartered the boat. It's pretty hard to make sales if you're not going to convince the prospective divers that they aren't in dire needs for your expertise.

 

[diverrex]

I'd much rather dive with the 100 dive OW than the 10 dive AOW. In fact I'd probably rather dive with a 100 dive OW than even a 50 dive AOW.

Except for a few that take to diving very naturally or those that were fortunate to have very very excellent training I think many divers start to become decent divers from 50 - 100 dives regardless of how many or how few certs they got in those first 50 dives.

 

[Mike]

That's why they should require 50 dives minimum before you can take AOW and 100 dives minimum before you can take rescue. Sure there would be some bitching from some divers, but at least the AOW card would mean a little bit more.

 

[TMHeimer]

That's why they should require 50 dives minimum before you can take AOW and 100 dives minimum before you can take rescue. Sure there would be some bitching from some divers, but at least the AOW card would mean a little bit more.

My opinion on AOW: I can somewhat agree with your 50 dive minimum simply because the card certifies you to a recommended depth of 100' and you are probably not at all ready for that right out of OW course.

On Rescue: Disagree on 100 dive minimum. Simply because almost no rescue training is taught anymore during OW course. I did mine with 26 logged dives back when the requirement for Rescue was 20. Yes, I may have gotten more from the course had I had 100 dives, but I learned the stuff anyway, and it's still the same stuff. It may be impractical to expect someone to do well in the Rescue course if they have only 7 logged dives (that would be the 4 OW checkout dives plus 3 Adventure Dives required for doing Rescue now, speaking PADI). But it's better than nothing, considering that two brand new OW graduates can do dive #5 to 60' as buddies, neither of them knowing anything more than the three tired diver tows and cramp removal. That's basically what my then buddy and I did--looking back at it now....