Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[Wookie]

I am happy to see that after 50 dives you still consider yourself a novice diver.

The OP has 50 dives. I consider that quite a bit of experience, and certainly wouldn't call it immediately after Open Water. It's damn near enough to start DM class.

I wasnt talking about the OP. Read my posts

And....?

 

[a-marshal]

I like the Dive ops response.. I would far rather they relied on what they saw of a divers abilities that any C-Card a diver might have.. I kind of wish more were like that.. I've been on boats where there were "AOW" divers that I did not want in the water near me.

I think the whole discussion is somewhat funny, it puts WAY to much emphasis on the CARD and to little on the diver.

 

[John_B]

I like the Dive ops response.. I would far rather they relied on what they saw of a divers abilities that any C-Card a diver might have.. I kind of wish more were like that.. I've been on boats where there were "AOW" divers that I did not want in the water near me.

I think the whole discussion is somewhat funny, it puts WAY to much emphasis on the CARD and to little on the diver.

If you are running a two-dive half-day charter, what other option do you have for divers you've never seen in the water but to set an AOW card as a minimum standard for deeper dives?

 

[Wookie]

If you are running a two-dive half-day charter, what other option do you have for divers you've never seen in the water but to set an AOW card as a minimum standard for deeper dives?

You tell them where you're going, what you expect the depth, visibility, current, surge, temperature, seas, and other variable conditions to expect. You tell them on days that you expect to be crappy that novice divers may be unhappy. You watch them gear up and see how comfortable they are with their equipment. You give an excellent briefing of what to expect in the water, how you expect them to react in certain situations, and how to get back on the boat, for any fool can fall off a boat, but it takes a certain special skill to get back on one, and every boat is different. You listen carefully to the divers questions and statements, for the diver will always tell you if they are nervous, but maybe not in so many words. You show interest in the diver and ask where they've dived before and where their last vacation was and how many dives they have.

All of these things are done to evaluate the diver before you ever get underway. They are effective to the experienced charter boat captain. The AOW card is a crutch for a charter operator that proves that a diver has completed 9 dives with an instructor. Maybe not such a big deal.

Too many charter captains show up to the boat in the morning (at least in the keys) all hung over or puffed with ego. I don't know why, they have brand new 50 ton licenses that they just bought from Sea School. Anyway, they check the oil, fire up, give a 4 minute briefing of where the water and lifejackets are and how not to plug the head, and then tell the customers that the wheelhouse is off limits. They call a roll call and have the mate/dive guide/deckhand throw lines. This is no way to learn the experience of your divers. The Coast Guard requires that inspected vessels demonstrate the donning of a life jacket by a crewmember prior to getting underway, as well as an abandon ship drill within 24 hours of getting underway. How many times have you seen a charter captain follow either of those rules.....

 

[a-marshal]

If you are running a two-dive half-day charter, what other option do you have for divers you've never seen in the water but to set an AOW card as a minimum standard for deeper dives?

That is coming at the issue from the other direction.. the operator can set any standards he/she chooses for any dive and I wont really disagree, it is their business/reputation/insurance. (Mostly insurance)

In the OP the operator was going to evaluate the diver individually in the water, a far better system than trusting to a Card.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Actually, DA, not quite right. SSI offers a cert called Advanced Adventurer that does not require all those dives or specialties (only 5 dives, and any time after OW), and yes, does include the word ADVANCED on the cert card.

Just as a card is only a card, a word is only a word.... there's no call for agency bashing.

That's not their Advanced Open water cert, it's just a try before you buy taste of 5 specialties before committing to/completing any of them.

This is the AOW course:

SSI :: SSI Scuba Schools International :: take your dive @ diveSSI.com

I'm also not agency bashing I am just pointing out not all agencies use the same PADI method. SSI places more value on diver experience and bases the AOW course on a mix of diver chosen specialty courses rather than a canned format.

Personally I think both approaches are inadequate in similar ways as neither puts enough emphasis on experience in a wide range of conditions, and undersells the concept that you are really only certed to dive in conditions similar to those in which you trained. This gets at the heart of Frank's casual interview based method of assessing diver ability in the specific conditions.

---------- Post Merged at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:05 AM ----------

The OP has 50 dives. I consider that quite a bit of experience, and certainly wouldn't call it immediately after Open Water. It's damn near enough to start DM class.

It depends on the dives. 50 dives in the quarry with most of them being dives where the diver has been trying unsuccessfully to master basic skills is one possibility. At the other extreme a diver with 50 dives may have 40 of them offshore in a variety of conditions and have a pretty broad base of experience in some challenging conditions.

The 50 dives = almost ready for a DM cert is another problem entirely. I'm a diver with 27 years experience, upwards of 3000 dives, full cave and trimix certs, and I still approach new to me dives or dive environments with a degree of prudence and caution. I can't remember dive 50, but I am pretty sure I would not have called my self and "experienced diver" in anything other than the conditions where I had some specific experience, even though I was post AOW course by then. (I took AOW as a college course, but elected not to pay for the card - I had to get the card 10 years later).

 

[John_B]

You tell them where you're going, what you expect the depth, visibility, current, surge, temperature, seas, and other variable conditions to expect. You tell them on days that you expect to be crappy that novice divers may be unhappy. You watch them gear up and see how comfortable they are with their equipment. You give an excellent briefing of what to expect in the water, how you expect them to react in certain situations, and how to get back on the boat, for any fool can fall off a boat, but it takes a certain special skill to get back on one, and every boat is different. You listen carefully to the divers questions and statements, for the diver will always tell you if they are nervous, but maybe not in so many words. You show interest in the diver and ask where they've dived before and where their last vacation was and how many dives they have.

All of these things are done to evaluate the diver before you ever get underway. They are effective to the experienced charter boat captain. The AOW card is a crutch for a charter operator that proves that a diver has completed 9 dives with an instructor. Maybe not such a big deal.

Too many charter captains show up to the boat in the morning (at least in the keys) all hung over or puffed with ego. I don't know why, they have brand new 50 ton licenses that they just bought from Sea School. Anyway, they check the oil, fire up, give a 4 minute briefing of where the water and lifejackets are and how not to plug the head, and then tell the customers that the wheelhouse is off limits. They call a roll call and have the mate/dive guide/deckhand throw lines. This is no way to learn the experience of your divers. The Coast Guard requires that inspected vessels demonstrate the donning of a life jacket by a crewmember prior to getting underway, as well as an abandon ship drill within 24 hours of getting underway. How many times have you seen a charter captain follow either of those rules.....

That is coming at the issue from the other direction.. the operator can set any standards he/she chooses for any dive and I wont really disagree, it is their business/reputation/insurance. (Mostly insurance)

In the OP the operator was going to evaluate the diver individually in the water, a far better system than trusting to a Card.

Woah, maybe take it down a notch? I'm not saying that's how it should be done, I'm saying that's how it happens IRL for the half-day charters.

How are you going to "get in the water" to evaluate a group of divers doing a Saturday morning two-dive trip out to the Spiegel Grove?

 

[Wookie]

Woah, maybe take it down a notch? I'm not saying that's how it should be done, I'm saying that's how it happens IRL for the half-day charters.

How are you going to "get in the water" to evaluate a group of divers doing a Saturday morning two-dive trip out to the Spiegel Grove?

Sorry, but you hit a button. Boat captains around here seem to think that the job is about the party in the keys and not about the safety of the divers. Not all captains either, but many of them. My point is that there are many ways to evaluate divers without being in the water with them. It's part of the job. Driving the bus is not the job, although it is part of the job too. For me, being a Captain is not a job, it's a vocation.

 

[fnfalman]

But you miss my point. You are adults (I assume). You are certified. You are capable of making your own decisions regarding your own capabilities. If the planned dive for the day is beyond your capability, or if you think it is beyond your capability, by all means, skip it. You and only you know what you are capable of, where your comfort level is, and your training. No one should ever tell you when you should dive or when you shouldn't. That is an intensely personal decision only you along with your buddy can make.

I totally concur. I don't go on dive charters where the charter would "let" or "allow" me to dive at a certain site. I'm a certified diver and I'm an adult. If I can't figure out that I'm incapable of making a certain dive then I don't need to be diving.

 

[Gombessa]

Wookie, under what circumstances would you let / support a novice diver (50 dives) going down to 80, 95, or 135 feet without a dedicated guide (assuming that they had never been trained about deep diving?) Could you describe a couple scenarios where you would / would not let them do so?

I haven't taken any AOW/specialty training myself, but given what I've heard about how some of these can go (one dive down to 90ft, stay at the bottom for a few minutes doing a math problem on a slate, etc.), I'd say not to discount experience and personal judgment over certification.

There are a number of real-world scenarios in which I'd be more comfortable hearing about divers with ~50 dives going to 80-95ft* without training over divers that have taken a deep specialty class: for instance, if the first group of divers has progressively and safely made deeper dives in familiar circumstances, going from 50-60-70-80-90 over the course of their 50 dives, and were at a point where they were getting familiar and comfortable with maintaining awareness, depth, descent and ascent rates, etc. Compare this to a hypothetical student who did a couple of deep dives with an instructor by taking AOW immediately after getting certified, and has since only been on shallow 30ft reefs for the rest if their 50 dives. Neither scenario is an edge case, both are possible and happen fairly regularly, it seems.

The problem with shops "requiring" AOW to do certain dives is that the certification tends to be an imprecise proxy for diving ability and preparedness. I'd much rather see the "we'll evaluate you in-water and work with you" or even "we'll review your logbook" approach, though both of these take more time/effort than just checking a card.

*I can't speak to 135ft. Never been that far myself, and I don't think I will outside of specific training.