Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[Quero]

There is in fact a lot more to life than PADI certs, and the PADI approach is not the only approach. I actually prefer the SSI approach as it at least ensures 25 post OW cert dives before being given an "advanced" OW cert - a term that's pretty laughable with 25 or 30 dives, let alone the 10 you could have with a PADI AOW cert.

Actually, DA, not quite right. SSI offers a cert called Advanced Adventurer that does not require all those dives or specialties (only 5 dives, and any time after OW), and yes, does include the word ADVANCED on the cert card.

Just as a card is only a card, a word is only a word.... there's no call for agency bashing.

 

[TSandM]

I don't find the dive shop's response upsetting, but it might depend a bit on who they put in the water with their divers.

After all, when you do the deep dive of your AOW class, you are doing your first deep dive, right? But you are doing it with a DM or instructor who KNOWS it's your first deep dive, and is going to watch you to make sure if you get overly narced or confused, you are kept safe. Something quite similar might be going on with this dive op. For example, on my first trip to Maui, the dive guide Peter and I had was a PADI instructor, who knew how new a diver I was. That it is okay to have a pro watching you is quite different from saying that you should be DEPENDENT on that person to do the dive, and the fact that the dive op wants to see your diving in shallower water before they take you deeper speaks well for them, I think.

Of course, you are still responsible for things like gas planning and dive planning and monitoring, just as you would be during a class (or should be, anyway).

 

[Insta-Gator]

First and foremost, you must be comfortable and confident in your diving skills, whether it be in 20' or 120'. The operator gave you the correct answer, IMO. So, after 50 dives, do you know what you're doing in the water? Are you confident in the water? Can you stay calm if things go awry?

If your answer to these questions is 'yes' then I don't see a problem If you are nervous and unsure of your diving skills, seek out other dive sites. You are always in charge of your own safety.

 

[Peter Guy]

OP -- I hope I understand your concern and why you've asked the question. I've certainly seen/heard dive ops cajole people into doing dives that perhaps they shouldn't be doing -- with the typical "Oh, OK, you've just been OW certified, but there are some really cool sharks down around 85 feet. You shouldn't have a problem." when, in fact, just getting down the anchor line could be a problem.

OTOH, at 50 dives I'd hope you'd have sufficient experience to do most any "normal" recreational dive and wouldn't give the particular dive op a second thought.

I feel sorry for "divers" who have been led to believe they need a card for EVERY type of diving they do instead of slowly expanding their experience by, well, diving! I just taught a PADI specialty class (Nitrox) and was talking with one of the students about his diving plans. I suggested he sign up for some boat dives sponsored by a local dive club -- "But I don't have my Boat Diving Cert" was his response. When I suggested he do some diving after work with a group of very good divers he said "But I don't have my Night Diving Specialty yet" and so he thought he shouldn't/couldn't do one -- even with a mentor. THAT, to me, is a sad comment.

Where you fit in that spectrum I have no idea. As an instructor I certainly advocate for taking classes and/or diving lessons -- but I also urge people to just go diving. One of the best pieces of advice I've received was "Get out of [the local diving spot] and go get your *sses handed to you!" Some times you just have to stretch your comfort zone -- but stretch only one thing at a time!

 

[mrfixitchapman]

That's just crazy talk.

DC

 

[Insta-Gator]

OP -- I hope I understand your concern and why you've asked the question. I've certainly seen/heard dive ops cajole people into doing dives that perhaps they shouldn't be doing -- with the typical "Oh, OK, you've just been OW certified, but there are some really cool sharks down around 85 feet. You shouldn't have a problem." when, in fact, just getting down the anchor line could be a problem.

OTOH, at 50 dives I'd hope you'd have sufficient experience to do most any "normal" recreational dive and wouldn't give the particular dive op a second thought.

I feel sorry for "divers" who have been led to believe they need a card for EVERY type of diving they do instead of slowly expanding their experience by, well, diving! I just taught a PADI specialty class (Nitrox) and was talking with one of the students about his diving plans. I suggested he sign up for some boat dives sponsored by a local dive club -- "But I don't have my Boat Diving Cert" was his response. When I suggested he do some diving after work with a group of very good divers he said "But I don't have my Night Diving Specialty yet" and so he thought he shouldn't/couldn't do one -- even with a mentor. THAT, to me, is a sad comment.

Where you fit in that spectrum I have no idea. As an instructor I certainly advocate for taking classes and/or diving lessons -- but I also urge people to just go diving. One of the best pieces of advice I've received was "Get out of [the local diving spot] and go get your *sses handed to you!" Some times you just have to stretch your comfort zone -- but stretch only one thing at a time!

Some chicks have to be pushed out of the nest or they will never fly.

 

[billt4sf]

I do not. The operator is allowing you to develop skills and abilities on your own. ..... With 50 dives, you should be comfortable in the water and getting ready to take baby steps in exploration on your own. Again, if you don't feel ready, by all means hire a guide.

Wookie, under what circumstances would you let / support a novice diver (50 dives) going down to 80, 95, or 135 feet without a dedicated guide (assuming that they had never been trained about deep diving?) Could you describe a couple scenarios where you would / would not let them do so?

Thanks,

Bill

 

[dumpsterDiver]

There is a huge difference between 80 feet and 120. I had no issue taking my 11 yr old down to around 80 feet, even though he had no certification for it. 80-90 feet is above the depth where narcosis should be an issue and it is not "that deep" .

Diving to 120 is a whole different experience, particulary when individual susceptibility to narcosis has not been explored. My youngest is 14 now and has done a lot of dives, but I am hesitant to take him even to 100 feet.

I think the dive operators response was very good. As others have said, a certification card does not mean a whole hell of a lot. A good and reputable operator who does this stuff for years will be able to tell you if you are ready for 80 or 90 feet after seeing you do a few dives to 60 feet or so. Of course, you shouldn't do anything you don't feel comfortable with, but the "magic card" in your wallet isn't gonna help you at 90 feet.

 

[Tigerman]

To give a very anecdotal, not very flattering, but very descriptive example of how much that card wont help you..

Shark and Yolanda reefs, Ras Mohammed, Red Sea - 40 minutes into a dive with pretty stiff currents - which goes all over that reef due to the topography, theres no way to dive all of the site without going against the current for short periods - a divemaster who was there as a paying customer gets winded, breathe heavy, freak out and bolts to the surface.
He paniced because he felt the regulator didnt supply enough air - which it did but he was hyperventilating..

 

[Wookie]

Wookie, under what circumstances would you let / support a novice diver (50 dives) going down to 80, 95, or 135 feet without a dedicated guide (assuming that they had never been trained about deep diving?) Could you describe a couple scenarios where you would / would not let them do so?

Thanks,

Bill

It depends on the dive site. Where we operate in the Mona passage, we dive walls that top in 30 feet (or shallower) and bottom in 400 or so feet. I would feel completely comfortable putting divers of any experience level unguided on those walls as long as the diver felt confident, and the current wasn't howling. Similarly, we used to operate in the Flower Garden Banks, where the current was usually stiff, the bottom was always 75-130 feet, and we catered to an awful lot of divers who were brand new out of OW class.

But you miss my point. You are adults (I assume). You are certified. You are capable of making your own decisions regarding your own capabilities. If the planned dive for the day is beyond your capability, or if you think it is beyond your capability, by all means, skip it. You and only you know what you are capable of, where your comfort level is, and your training. No one should ever tell you when you should dive or when you shouldn't. That is an intensely personal decision only you along with your buddy can make.

Lets equate it with driving. You have a driver's license. That license does not allow you to drive faster than (the speed limit) 65 MPH. You may take extended speed classes (NASCAR track) and drive a retired NASCAR at speeds approaching 180. You may choose to drive down Lombard street, or you may not have the brakes for it. You may not drive like Steve McQueen in Bullitt, but you may drive like Eddie Murphy in 48 hours. You may only feel comfortable at 35 MPH, and if so, please stay off the interstates. The speed you drive is (up to a point) your choice, and you probably drive faster now than you did as a newly minted driver. Because you have more experience now than you did. You gained that experience out on the highway, not in a driver's ed class.