Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[danvolker]

Woah, maybe take it down a notch? I'm not saying that's how it should be done, I'm saying that's how it happens IRL for the half-day charters.

How are you going to "get in the water" to evaluate a group of divers doing a Saturday morning two-dive trip out to the Spiegel Grove?

One way this happens is a good captain maintaining a good crew....and the in-water crew reports/discusses any behaviors to the Captain that are of concern.

I would hate to take a diver on a 130 foot deep wreck, knowing only that they had an AOW card....if that was all I knew about them, it would mean that they might be a good diver, or, they might survive for 30 minutes in a swimming pool by themselves--might. It really means almost nothing beyond the insurance liability issues. If a boat is going to an advanced dive site---deeper more challenging depths, they need to know about each diver they are taking there. The card alone will not be the way they will know, if it is a typical recreational diving card. I say this not because I really believe it should be the boat's responsibility....I think the liability should be on each diver themselves, and not the boat at all....Just the same, no Captain or crew member will want to experience a death on a dive trip, so there are many standard practices in play to prevent this.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It depends on the dives. 50 dives in the quarry with most of them being dives where the diver has been trying unsuccessfully to master basic skills is one possibility. At the other extreme a diver with 50 dives may have 40 of them offshore in a variety of conditions and have a pretty broad base of experience in some challenging conditions.

I think it depends more on the diver than the dives. 50 dives in any environment won't teach you much if they're just a repetition of the same behavioral mistakes over and over again ... I've seen divers with hundreds of dives who are horrible divers. Experience is only useful if there's a commitment to learn from your mistakes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post Merged at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:07 PM ----------

You tell them where you're going, what you expect the depth, visibility, current, surge, temperature, seas, and other variable conditions to expect. You tell them on days that you expect to be crappy that novice divers may be unhappy. You watch them gear up and see how comfortable they are with their equipment. You give an excellent briefing of what to expect in the water, how you expect them to react in certain situations, and how to get back on the boat, for any fool can fall off a boat, but it takes a certain special skill to get back on one, and every boat is different. You listen carefully to the divers questions and statements, for the diver will always tell you if they are nervous, but maybe not in so many words. You show interest in the diver and ask where they've dived before and where their last vacation was and how many dives they have.

All of these things are done to evaluate the diver before you ever get underway. They are effective to the experienced charter boat captain. The AOW card is a crutch for a charter operator that proves that a diver has completed 9 dives with an instructor. Maybe not such a big deal.

... so I'm curious why you don't take that same approach and feel the same way about solo divers? I've known several with the card who scare the crap out of me ... and some who are self-taught who have skills and knowledge you won't find in the course.

I agree with what you said, but feel that perhaps it could apply equally as well to those who choose to dive solo ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike]

You tell them where you're going, what you expect the depth, visibility, current, surge, temperature, seas, and other variable conditions to expect. You tell them on days that you expect to be crappy that novice divers may be unhappy. You watch them gear up and see how comfortable they are with their equipment. You give an excellent briefing of what to expect in the water, how you expect them to react in certain situations, and how to get back on the boat, for any fool can fall off a boat, but it takes a certain special skill to get back on one, and every boat is different. You listen carefully to the divers questions and statements, for the diver will always tell you if they are nervous, but maybe not in so many words. You show interest in the diver and ask where they've dived before and where their last vacation was and how many dives they have.

All of these things are done to evaluate the diver before you ever get underway. They are effective to the experienced charter boat captain. The AOW card is a crutch for a charter operator that proves that a diver has completed 9 dives with an instructor. Maybe not such a big deal.

Wow, now that is how a true professional and an owner who is directly hands on would run his dive business. You obviously are both and I applaud you for that.

But, and it's the big but, as even you stated, you're the exception to the rule. Many owners are far from hands on, and they delegate to their dive masters to deal with the divers and they pay no attention to what you described, nor have the ability to even come close to being so perceptive, so that's why you end up having to use some sort of standard of measure such as a certification card. But you knew that didn't you?

And that's the problem for the OP, unless somebody has first hand knowledge of the operator in question, nobody really knows if his email is just the best intentions of somebody in the office which will fall far short once the OP is on the dive boat.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The problem with shops "requiring" AOW to do certain dives is that the certification tends to be an imprecise proxy for diving ability and preparedness.

The real problem with shops "requiring" AOW is that it gives people the wrong motivation for taking the class ... and often leaves them with the wrong impression of their preparedness for doing those dives once they've obtained the c-card.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

II agree with what you said, but feel that perhaps it could apply equally as well to those who choose to dive solo ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I treat solo as an advanced certification. IMHO, an advanced card is a bunch of hooey dreamt up by the training agencies to give a diver 5 more dives with an instructor. It is required as a stepping stone to follow the agency path. AWAP on this board has thousands of successful dives from my boat (maybe not thousands but certainly hundreds) as an open water diver. I had to twist his arm to get nitrox certified. He wanted to dive solo, which requires an advanced card. More training agency hooey. Solo, however, is a true advanced certification in the truest sense of the word. Skills not learned in open water (or at least most OW classes) come in to play. As far as I'm concerned, an Open Water diver is certified to dive to 130 feet within the limitations of their skills and experience. I don't require an advanced card because the skills learned in Advanced can just as easily be learned by reading books and being mentored. Besides, my insurance company agrees with me, and we recently had this conversation. Solo diving can also be learned by reading books and mentoring, but my insurance company would be a little squidgey if I allowed an unfettered solo diving free for all. Especially since my insurance company is also SDI's insurance company. Many charter boats, however, allow divers to dive without a buddy if they know you. Not all charter boats carry the same kind of insurance I do.

 

[ADeadlierSnake]

And....?

And you are reading the wrost post(s). I was talking about the guy I quoted in my first post. Why do I even need to spell this out?

 

[eelnoraa]

I totally agree with you on this one. However, from a boat caption point of view, he/she needs some guideline to go with when the divers on the boat are someone he/she meets for the first time. Otherwise, how else should the captain do it? It is not pratical to ask all diver to get in the pool, demonstrate skills before going onto a charter.

The real problem is the gap between a diver's true ability vs the cert he/she can obtain. If AOW cert can only be granted to someone who meet and pass certain standards, not just attend the class, there will be no problem with it. The system itself definitely has a problem here. On top of that, the misuse of the term "advanced" is also annoying.

The real problem with shops "requiring" AOW is that it gives people the wrong motivation for taking the class ... and often leaves them with the wrong impression of their preparedness for doing those dives once they've obtained the c-card.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I am a fan of dive operators who are more concerned with diver competence that credentials. Dive operators should (and usually do) know local conditions and they should be able to evaluate a divers skills. Immediately following my open water certification in Maui ( many years ago, with Course Director Bill Hannan) I immediately went out on a dive boat and did Molikini Crater, a very easy dive, but to 80 feet. he deemed my skills appropriate. Lahaina Divers has some advanced dives for which they require you dive with them before hand and they evaluate your skills to determine if you can do the dive. I am fine with that. If I am leading a dive, and I think a diver is a little sketchy as to ability to do it, I will say so. I will talk to them about the dive, and then I (and/or the captain) will decided if they do the dive. I am all for continue diver education, and encourage all divers to pursue ever expanding credentials AND COMPETENCE. Competence can come from experience, aptitude, and/or formal instruction.
DivemastererDennis

 

[fnfalman]

I haven't taken any AOW/specialty training myself, but given what I've heard about how some of these can go (one dive down to 90ft, stay at the bottom for a few minutes doing a math problem on a slate, etc.), I'd say not to discount experience and personal judgment over certification.

Some instructors would teach and have students do gas plans for deep dives, but most of the time it's an instructor-guided dive to 80-ft plus. So, yes, to me, it's pretty damn worthless.

The problem with shops "requiring" AOW to do certain dives is that the certification tends to be an imprecise proxy for diving ability and preparedness. I'd much rather see the "we'll evaluate you in-water and work with you" or even "we'll review your logbook" approach, though both of these take more time/effort than just checking a card.

Some boat charters or shops that charter the boats would require AOW because of supposedly "liability". What liability? We signed liability waivers to the boat and to the shop that charters the boat. I personally think that it's nothing but a facade for milking the divers. I'm not putting down training, but training for the sake of training? With a practically worthless card afterward? No thanks.

I had a couple of DMs (instructors who moonlighted as DMs) telling me that they'd be safe diving with a 10-dives AOW holder than a 100-dives OW holder. You gotta be kidding me?

 

[Adobo]

I'm not sure of this is the right forum for this but I have learned alot from the forum here so I'll post.

What do people think of the exchange between me and a certain dive operator? We are thinking of going there but we want to make sure the dives are appropriate for us. My query first, followed by their response:

My query: We are novice divers, about 50 dives each. We did the AOW class but not the "Deep Diving" portion. It seems to me from reading your website that several dive sites would be better done if we did get that deeper experience before coming. We would really like to see some sharks and other larger creatures so I guess that deep diving cert is important - ?

Their response: Wedo not require an AOW certification incl. the deep adventure dive to let you do Deep Dives. Once the dive crew has seen you in the water diving and feels comfortable with your diving skills, you will certainly be able to do the deeper dives as well.
We will never put you in a situation you are not comfortable with and would work with you before you go on a deep dive.

The dive op's objective is to make money. Of course, they want their customers to come home safe and happy but ultimately, if they say "no" too much, they know that a prospective customer can be lost to another op who is more than willing to say "yes". So while I find their response to you to be plenty reasonable, I think it really doesn't speak to the question that I suspect might be underlying. That is, is it okay for you and your wife to participate in a recreational deep dive with this or any other operation.

The only way I think you can answer that is to think about some of the very basics. For example:
- do you know how much gas at a minimum you will need at pretty much any point in the dive to get you and your buddy safely back to the surface in case of emergency?
- if you had an emergency in midwater, do both you and your buddy have the ability to deal with the emergency without sinking to the bottom or corking to the surface?
- if you had an emergency away from the anchor line, do you and your buddy know what options you have and how to decide which option is best under the circumstance?
- do you know how to estimate how much time you will spend at the bottom given the amount of gas you will be bringing and your SAC rate?
- do you have your weighting nailed down? If not, do you know how to get there?
- for the conditions specific to the sites you are going into, do you have confidence that you can deal with the conditions?
- have you and your buddy identified what issues you ran into in your previous dives that you posted about and worked through those issues such that they are unlikely to happen again?

Answering no to several of these types of questions is okay. Its just that the deeper you go, the more potential consequences these things tend to have.

Others are right in that continuing to dive more and in different environments does help you develop as a diver. But sometimes you need a little bit more than doing the same old thing to get yourself ready for something completely different. As an example, if you are still planning your gas by "be back to the surface with 500psi", I doubt that you will figure out how to better plan your gas just by continuing to dive more. Some of the things listed about, the only way to learn about them is to have someone teach you.