Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[Jim Lapenta]

Unresponsive diver from the bottom is in no way an advanced skill. It is and has been part of thousands of basic open water classes for over fifty years. Only those classes that were broken up for no other reason than to.get into divers wallets consider it an advanced skill. Same with buoyancy and trim. Basic open water skills. If a diver doesn't have them somewhat under control they should not have been given a card. Again another result of greed over all.

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[MXGratefulDiver]

Unresponsive diver from the bottom is in no way an advanced skill. It is and has been part of thousands of basic open water classes for over fifty years.

It remains a part of NAUI's OW curriculum. Couple years ago I was training a 12-year old girl who weighed all of 75 lbs. For the final exercise of the class she had to bring her "unconscious" father up from 20 feet and tow him to the beach. She did it without too much difficulty ... I don't think it even occurred to her that it was supposed to be hard. Her dad was more than twice her size and weight. If she can do it as part of her OW training, then I believe pretty much anyone can.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

Unresponsive diver from the bottom is in no way an advanced skill. It is and has been part of thousands of basic open water classes for over fifty years. Only those classes that were broken up for no other reason than to.get into divers wallets consider it an advanced skill. Same with buoyancy and trim. Basic open water skills. If a diver doesn't have them somewhat under control they should not have been given a card. Again another result of greed over all.

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I know you say it's greed, and that's part of it, but I think it's more the "anyone can dive" attitude. Look at it another way. OW during the 70's and 80's used to be 9-11 modules/dives. Divers came out knowing a little something something about buoyancy, rescue techniques, self rescue, and actually how to dive. If you look at OW, AOW, and Rescue, you get the same education over a longer period of time. Yes, you have to pay for 3 classes to get the same amount of info, but what instructor in his (her) right mind wants to go back to a 11 module OW class that pays $50 or $100 bucks? The "modern" instructional methods teach the same info over a longer period of time, with time for practice in between. Is either method perfect? Nope, both have disadvantages. But - both have advantages too. Divers are able to get in the water and practice what they have learned. IF THEY WANT TO. Being a crappy diver comes a lot from inside. I don't remember being a crappy diver because I dove my butt off while waiting for an advanced class to open up. I'm sure I was a crappy diver, I just don't remember it.

The dis-service comes because too many instructors don't know any other way, this new way is all they know, they don't remember how it took all winter, or all semester, or 8-10 weeks to get through an OW class. These instructors only know lousy instruction because it's all they have been exposed to.

---------- Post Merged at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:22 AM ----------

It remains a part of NAUI's OW curriculum. Couple years ago I was training a 12-year old girl who weighed all of 75 lbs. For the final exercise of the class she had to bring her "unconscious" father up from 20 feet and tow him to the beach. She did it without too much difficulty ... I don't think it even occurred to her that it was supposed to be hard. Her dad was more than twice her size and weight. If she can do it as part of her OW training, then I believe pretty much anyone can.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Many small women have rescued me. I am easily 3 times their size and weight. I tow well, though....

 

[idive2]

The OP has 50 dives. I consider that quite a bit of experience, and certainly wouldn't call it immediately after Open Water. It's damn near enough to start DM class.

A few years back I had an over exuberant diver almost kick my mask off going down the line. I didn't
make a big deal of it and later on the boat heard him say he was a new DM and I just kind
of shook my head. So while 50 dives might be enough for many divers to refine their skills it may take others longer.
This same DM is probably kicking someone elses mask off today ! I have to agree with DD that a screw up a 120 ft can have much
greater consequences than a screw up at 60 ft. Deeper dives do require a higher level of respect and consideration.

 

[Wookie]

I have to agree with DD that a screw up a 120 ft can have much
greater consequences than a screw up at 60 ft. Deeper dives do require a higher level of respect and consideration.

For my personal diving, I have a far different attitude. I feel that it's like diving, only deeper. If you are prepared for a 30 foot dive, the same preparation and planning (for me) go into a 300 foot dive. I truly feel that the ocean is a harsh foreign environment and that diving is not safe, regardless of the depth. I give every bit of effort in planning my gas consumption, my regulator operation, and my gear configuration for a pretty fish reef dive as I do for a trimix virgin wreck exploration dive. I will never understand the attitude of a shallow dive being easier or less demanding than a deeper one.

I have a buddy who is freaked whenever she makes a trimix dive. She will spend hours planning and futzing and calculating and dinking around calculating best gasses and SAC rates and playing with her rebreather until she wears the damn thing out before she ever gets in the water. She works herself into a tizzy getting herself wrapped around the axle. I try to explain to her that it's just like diving, only deeper, but she doesn't get that. Maybe I'm too casual with deep trimix dives, but I rather suspect that 90% of the divers now certified are too casual with shallow dives. JMHO.

 

[phoenix31tt]

Same with buoyancy and trim. Basic open water skills. If a diver doesn't have them somewhat under control they should not have been given a card.

i agree... a new certified open water diver should not be fighting with these skills still... they should be able to perform them adequately and perfect them in subsequent dive... you shouldnt have to be perfect or close to perfect to learn to be a safer diver!

however we all know that not all open water instructors are made equal and thus some certify divers that do not have these basic skills... will 100 dives give them these skills? i dont know...

its just like the topic says.. number of dives or c-cards mean nothing... so before doing a rescue course etc, you should be able to properly demonstrate OW skills to the instructor so that they know you can focus on the rescue training

 

[flots am]

I try to explain to her that it's just like diving, only deeper, but she doesn't get that. Maybe I'm too casual with deep trimix dives, but I rather suspect that 90% of the divers now certified are too casual with shallow dives. JMHO.

I'm absolutely certain that you know this, so I'm not sure what your point is, however a 30' dive allows the diver to simply surface at any time if there's a problem. Although a slow ascent is nice, at 30' even a "too fast" ascent is still pretty safe.

A 300' tri-mix dive requires accurate timing and ascent rates, a workable gas plan that takes into account equipment failures and gas loss, and mandatory stops required in order to avoid a horrible death, making it quite a different beast.

flots.

 

[Wookie]

I'm absolutely certain that you know this, so I'm not sure what your point is, however a 30' dive allows the diver to simply surface at any time if there's a problem. Although a slow ascent is nice, at 30' even a "too fast" ascent is still pretty safe.

A 300' tri-mix dive requires accurate timing and ascent rates, a workable gas plan that takes into account equipment failures and gas loss, and mandatory stops required in order to avoid a horrible death, making it quite a different beast.

flots.

My point was, diving is dangerous. Without a good head attached to the diver, you can die in a quarry as easily as you can on the Doria. More equipment goes into a trimix dive to make it as safe as a pool dive, and training is required to use that equipment. The planning should be on par for either. Whether or not you can surface directly should not be a consideration for ease of diving. Running out of gas or equipment failure at 30 feet can result in the same ugly death as the same issue at 300 feet if the diver is suffering from a rectal cranial inversion. Conversely, running out of gas or equipment failure can result in a happy ending if the diver has his wits about him in either location.

Again, this is strictly my opinion and approach to diving. Others may, should, will, and shall dive differently than I do. It's all good.

 

[TSandM]

For my personal diving, I have a far different attitude. I feel that it's like diving, only deeper. If you are prepared for a 30 foot dive, the same preparation and planning (for me) go into a 300 foot dive. . . Maybe I'm too casual with deep trimix dives, but I rather suspect that 90% of the divers now certified are too casual with shallow dives. JMHO.

Frank, I love it! I am widely known for being an annoying pain about having a dive plan and a gear check for even a 20 foot paddle around in the eelgrass. If you build a good approach and good habits and stick to them religiously, you won't forget something or get caught in complacency.

The diver who does 300 foot dives may regard the 30 foot reef dive as trivial, but most of the people doing those 30 foot reef dives might well be as challenged to remain calm and controlled in the face of a major urgency as that technical diver would on one of his deep dives.

 

[Peter Guy]

All -- how many of you have had to bring up a live, unresponsive diver, from depth?

Now I know that "some" treat this as a "basic skill" but really, is it? Let's be honest about this -- what are REALLY "basic" skills?

I, for one, don't think it is but the following may well be:

a. Cramp releasing
b. Tired diver towing
c. Mask clearing
d. Regulator removal and replacing
e. Air sharing
f. Descending under control
g. Ascending under control
h. Being neutral in the water column
i. Putting your gear together
j. Reading/signalling PSI
k. Understanding information presented by the dive computer
l. .....????

Maybe I really don't understand scuba diving, being an open water scuba instructor or whatever, but I just don't get the "Oh the horror of 'PADIfied' training." IF the instructor actually focuses on creating a diver by using the basic skills, it is my (perhaps uninformed) position that a good, solid, basic diver will result. And no, they don't need to know how to recover a breathing, unresponsive diver in order to be a good, solid, basic, safe scuba diver.