Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[Wookie]

Peter makes a good point. The I have seen (participant as Captain, not diver) 2 live unresponsive diver rescues. One made it, one didn't. The one that didn't died on the ascent, and no amount of CPR underwater would have helped. The one that made it was suffering from Isobaric counter diffusion (so she suspects) and would have made it anyway. Her buddy held her regulator in her mouth until she came around again. She never stopped breathing, but the lights were out. Panicked diver at the surface, however, we see often enough that we actually practice it before the season starts.

Poor Bill. His post went places he never dreamed of....

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I've also seen several cases where a buddy did not know how to support a diver at the surface and help them drop their weights. And I have the news and eyewitness reports of those who saw a diver drown 4 feet from the surface because her buddy did not know how to support her and drop her lead. He was trying to drag her up by her octo.
And the simple fact it is those skills, that some agencies consider basic rescue skills for their OW classes, take no more than one pool session of an hour and half to two hours to teach.

Right or wrong after the research I did for my "Failure of the Buddy System" presentation, the "Who is Responsible" article in the New Divers forum, the "PTSD in Recreational Rescues" supplement that I also now include with all classes, and my book, I made the decision that every class I offer will include those skills at a minimum and every class will have additional rescue skills in it that build on those.

I had four students this season that took their drysuit class with me. Those skills - unresponsive diver from depth, panicked diver at the surface, supporting a diver who has lost or is unable to maintain positive buoyancy, and rescue tow while stripping gear were all included in the class. Along with the standard drysuit training. The added comfort and confidence they gained was worth the few extra minutes it took.

I also made the decision that unless I'm getting paid to do so, I will not dive with anyone who does not have those skills that my agency and a few others consider to be necessary for an OW diver to have.

I'll dive solo and know who I can count on and what the results will likely be if I have a problem.

If a diver asks me to buddy up with them I will ask if they have had the training. If not I'll offer it or tell them where they can get it. If they refuse, they can find someone else to dive with or pay me to babysit them.

 

[TMHeimer]

Agree: All divers should have basic rescue skills. Especially those skills dealing with panicked divers. But I would also include bringing up unconscious diver from depth--it's probably rare, but he still may be alive.
Agree: Diver competence is the MOST important factor for safety. You can die at any depth.
Disagree: that diver competence is the only factor regardless of depth. 30 feet is safer than 300-- IMHO even for competent divers. Yes, competent tech. divers have the training to deal with problems at 300 feet. You're still a long way down for other things to go wrong. As mentioned--CESA from 30 feet and you're out.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This story may well have ended differently if her relatively inexperienced buddy had a clue how to bring her up from depth, rather than wearing himself out and, in a panic, letting her drop back down to the bottom while he bolted for the surface ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike]

I'm very much looking forward to a solo trip to Truk and insta-buddying with the newly certified DM with the minimum 60 dives.

I'll be reminding myself how lucky I am the dive experience levels are so low at the same time I'm answering his questions about how his dive computer works.

 

[billt4sf]

Wow, 10 pages, 95 posts, 3,000+ views and counting! I guess I hit a nerve!

I feel sad about the poor diving skills I had after finishing my OW class, and for that matter my AOW class and my drysuit class. None have been great but they all served a purpose. I’m glad they did not cost more or we might not have done them. We really struggled at the beginning to just get DOWN with our ears cleared!

I personally think the biggest hurdle to become a good diver has been (and is) learning to dive as true buddies instead of “follow the Instructor”.

Now we’re trying to decide between a $425 pp PADI rescue course and a $500 pp personalized DIR / GUE “Fundies” (Fundamentals?) course which would also take us down a certain road for equipment and diving habits. It’s mostly from ScubaBoard that I have started to learn how much we have still to learn!

I really react negatively to this statement:

In your basic SCUBA class, we all learn that we are responsible for diving within our limits. Once you are in the water you will notice that there are no SCUBA police- unless you hire a Divemaster for any reason.

I think this can be a cop-out. I know one thing – I was NOT trained well enough in OW or AOW to know what my limits were! And I am willing to bet that most OW divers are in the same boat – as many of your posts have pointed out. And I know another thing: at least one operator let us on a dive that we were not ready for (see second link below). So this is why I question it when an operator tells me that they will tell me if I am ready.

Even in just our 35 (so far) dives we have had some Incidents:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/428688-no-air-40-night.html
and
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...-worked-out-great-now-were-really-scared.html

I still don’t get how anyone should go more than 60 feet down without 1) some instruction (not just a short conversation) on the effects of nitrogen narcosis and 2) excellent buddy skills. What you are all saying is that no course or number of dives ensures both those things. So the decision will be up to the diver (who wants to pay their money) and the operator (who has a vested interest in taking it). And they will put you in the water likely following a DM in a “follow me” scenario.

I don’t have a solution for this except that I am glad ScubaBoard is here!

 

[flots am]

I think this can be a cop-out. I know one thing – I was NOT trained well enough in OW or AOW to know what my limits were!

Sure you do.

Picture yourself on a boat. You're fresh out of OW class. The captain heads out into the ocean and keeps going for maybe 45 minutes, then says "We're here, have a nice dive!"

There's no DM and nobody is getting into the water with you except your buddy, who you met in your OW class.

Scared? Having second thoughts?

Now you know what your limits are.

flots.

 

[Wookie]

Save your money and find a mentor. Sounds like you both love to dive. You have the gear for local diving. You are in a perfect position to go learn some skills. I'd bet that there a bunch of clubs in SF that dive locally. I know on a couple of divers local to you that would be happy to give you some pointers. Just up the road in Seattle are some fine divers from this board who would dive with you.

 

[Insta-Gator]

I still don’t get how anyone should go more than 60 feet down without 1) some instruction (not just a short conversation) on the effects of nitrogen narcosis and 2) excellent buddy skills. What you are all saying is that no course or number of dives ensures both those things. So the decision will be up to the diver (who wants to pay their money) and the operator (who has a vested interest in taking it). And they will put you in the water likely following a DM in a “follow me” scenario.

I don’t have a solution for this except that I am glad ScubaBoard is here!

The fact the you are aware of your need to improve these two skill is step 1. So, it's up to you to think them through and act upon it.

What would you do differently at 85' from what you would do at 60'? For that matter what would you do differently at 100'? Have you executed an emergency ascent from 60'? Think you could do one? Would personal diving skills and proper buddy awareness be better? (IMO, yes)

 

[TSandM]

I don't think you should decide BETWEEN your two classes . . . I think, over time, you should do both of them. They have different areas of focus. The Fundamentals class or workshop will REALLY hone your buddy skills and show you the bar on situational awareness, as well as giving you some very good tools for dive planning and pre-dive preparation. Even if you decided, after the class, not to continue with the gear configuration you were shown, you would still have those things, as well as some coaching on really solid buoyancy and tolerance of task-loading.

Rescue, on the other hand, although it has a lot in it about how to think about, organize, and execute a Rescue, is also very much about how to avoid ever being involved in one. But if you frequent dive sites, you may well be involved with a Rescue situation not of your own making -- I have been involved in two. Having the training would certainly make you more comfortable, both in the situation itself, and afterwards, in knowing that you did what could be done.