Ditching the poodle jacket

[Tortuga68]

Let's not

 

[InTheDrink]

Let's not

Jeez. No sugar on your cheerios this morning?

 

[Sas]

Yeah, but you could apply that same logic to anything you wanted...

"Why would you want to remove your nose?"

1. To get it pierced.
2. To treat a sinus infection.
3. To trade out with buddies.
4...

You get the idea. They all sound like logical reasons, as we sit here in front of our computers or talk about them at the dive shop or discuss it with friends/buddies/instructors. The reality is, though, that when you're underwater these things don't really happen.

Yes they do.

Bug hunting: The age-old story of the diver that came up to a wreck or reef and found a fully rigged scuba unit just laying there on the seabed... Then saw a person swim out of a hole on a breath hold with a lobster in his hand and don the rig underwater, is an urban legend. The story of John Chatterton doffing his rig and pushing it through a restriction ahead of him inside of the U-Who in order to discover the identity of the sub is a lie. Never happened. Stories like these proliferate because they impress opon the listener how "serious" or "cool" a diver is because he's so macho that he can dive, even without his life support. In reality, the sea cares not how macho you are, and nobody continues to breathe without life support - and that's all there is to it.

I see divers remove their gear all the time to get bugs, *dozens* of times, in fact. A buddy of mine is particularly fond of this method and barely a bug hunting dive has gone by without him ditching his gear and crawling under a ledge. (I think InTheDrink might have even seen him do this as John has been around when this buddy has been bug hunting - unsuccessfully though - to verify but I can't remember if he needed to ditch his gear that time! ) Edit: should have read all posts before replying, I see Inthedrink already answered this

Dealing with leaking first stage/o-ring problem: What, the problem wasn't there five minutes ago when you were topside and could do something about it? What are you going to do to fix it underwater? Surface, fix, dive if there's a problem. It is, after all, kinda important that it works correctly.

I had a first stage leak underwater that was fixed by a buddy underwater - from what he told me after after it was a screw in the reg that kept coming lose. It had happened on the surface, we fixed it and then it happened at depth, fixed and the dive continued on as normal. I don't know why I would surface from a 35m dive just to fix something like this. If I had been by myself I could have taken my rig off to look at it properly had I *really* wanted to. But yea I would prefer just to get a buddy to do it. But the idea that a first stage leak would lead to surfacing is just not necessarily going to happen. Depends if it is fixable or not and if I am comfortable with the fix.

Adjusting tank bands: Replace your crappy plastic-buckled straps with these - Stainless Steel Cam Latch Tank Strap reviews and discounts, Scubamax - and never have the problem again.

Yea but you might not secure it tight enough, it happens. No big deal if you can ditch your rig and replace it. As I said in an earlier example, my harness had been adjusted and fiddled with and after I forgot to check the crotch strap. The previous user had loosened this too much and it unthreaded on a dive, just took my rig off and fixed it, was no drama at all.

Passing gear through a narrow spot where both rig and human can't pass at same time (wreck/cave)? Yep, there it is... The urban legend lives on. Honestly, if I can't get in, what's to assure me that I can get out? Find another way, rerig so that you're narrower, cut yourself a hole in the wreck... Whatever. There are a lot of other solutions other than removing your nose to gain access... Er, removing your life support.

This is done in places where there are restrictions. I have seen video of it, but never done it myself.

Anyway, basically there are situations where you may want to remove your gear underwater. Most of the time no, and most of these examples you have other options than ditching your gear, but bug hunting is not one of those and I see gear removal a lot. It is really no big deal at all, and is a nice extra skill to have. I practice various skills I am highly unlikely to ever use, just to increase comfort (buddy breathing, reeling in without a mask and sharing air, ditch and don, etc).

 

[Sas]

WOW !!! I didn't imagine that either you or Saspotato were THAT desperate for lobsters ??? (or anyone for that matter, unless you're a local subsistance fishing local fisherman/diver!) I'm not seeing either of you as being anywhere near 'financially challenged' enough to need free ones that badly, so it is a competitive thing? I'm just not seein' the risk-reward payoff here, but to each his own, I guess...or maybe I'm just a little annoyed to hear of divers rooting out the last dregs of sealife, sterilizing the sea for future generations, leaving lobsters with no refuge....show some mercy, please!

I do not hunt bugs. I do not actually eat seafood at all. A buddy hunts for bugs and they live in narrow ledges that cannot fit divers in easily or if their rigs are left on it can cause more damage.

The percentage of bugs taken by rec fishers is 2% btw. And there are quotas.

 

[hg frogman]

I come late but here is my experience with (part of) the rig the OP is interested in.

All backplates are not the same. The Diverite hurts my back while the OMS feels very comfortable. This is personal, the point is : it doesn't hurt actually trying it before buying.

For temperate to warm seas, 30 lbs of lift is a minimum to be able to dive with different wetsuits and different tanks and a good safety margin while staying at the surface. I have also a 18 lbs wing and, despite being very nice underwater, that wing is only barely adequate for floating me on the surface in warm water, while using a 3 mm full wetsuit and no lead (I need 4 pounds with an Al80 tank, 3 mm full wetsuit and jacket BCD). A wing too small doesn't rise my head enough above the surface (too heavy head ? ). Because of this, for me certain discussions on this board about "optimal lift" are pointless. But enough about them.

I have an Oxycheq Mach V Extrem 30 lbs and it's a nice, strong and well profiled wing. The Mach V Signature Series is a bit less extremely tough but maybe a bit more streamlined (a bit less bulky when deflated ?). The Sig Series Oxycheq wings seem a bit stronger than OMS wings (same outer fabric but heavier inner bladder). No STA needed with my Oxycheq wing on my OMS plate. I have also an Oxycheq SS STA (very good) which weighs less than one pound but I usually don't use it.

The only wings manufacturer (AFAIK) who puts a quick dump valve on the right shoulder is OMS. If you really want this feature, check OMS recent harnesses, some of them are well suited to it, with a toggle and line incorporated in the harness. I don't consider a shoulder quick dump valve really necessary but this is only my opinion.

For diving in open water with currents (eg the Brothers in the Red Sea) a BP/W is different from a jacket BCD, in my experience. With a BP/W it takes me a bit longer to get down while jumping from a RIB (ie, negative entry is a bit less straightforward unless you suck your wing dry from the inflator before the jump: not really nice for hygiena). The BP/W also is rather a bit less streamlined than a good jacket BCD (fabric flopping on your back is less hydrodynamic than fabric wrapped around your body) but that's no big difference.

But a SS BP/W suppresses the need for 6 to 8 pounds of lead and that's nice when you need that weight or more. Waist pockets are more practical IMO with a BP/W than a weightbelt. Instead of both, I often use one OMS (small) mask waist pouch where I can also put some lead, I find it convenient and versatile.

The crotch strap is definately a nice feature.

Overall I prefer my SS BP/W than my jacket-style BCDs for temperate (Mediterranean) or cold (Alpine lakes) waters.

 

[InTheDrink]

I come late but here is my experience with (part) of the rig the OP is interested in.

All backplates are not the same. The Diverite hurts my back while the OMS feels very comfortable. This is personal, the point is : it doesn't hurt actually trying it before buying.

For temperate to warm seas, 30 lbs of lift is a minimum to be able to dive with different wetsuits and different tanks and a good safety margin while staying at the surface. I have also a 18 lbs wing and, despite being very nice underwater, that wing is only barely adequate for floating me on the surface in warm water, while using a 3 mm full wetsuit and no lead (I need 4 pounds with an Al80 tank, 3 mm full wetsuit and jacket BCD). A wing too small doesn't rise my head enough above the surface (too heavy head ? ). Because of this, for me certain discussions on this board about "optimal lift" are pointless. But enough about them.

I have an Oxycheq Mach V Extrem 30 lbs and it's a nice, strong and well profiled wing. The Mach V Signature Series is a bit less extremely tough but maybe a bit more streamlined (a bit less bulky when deflated ?). The Sig Series Oxycheq wings seem a bit stronger than OMS wings (same outer fabric but heavier inner bladder). No STA needed with my Oxycheq on my OMS plate. I have also an Oxycheq SS STA (very good) which weighs less than one pound but I usually don't use it.

The only wings manufacturer (AFAIK) with a quick dump valve on the right shoulder is OMS. If you really want this feature, check OMS recent harnesses, some of them are well suited to it, with a toggle and line incorporated in the harness. I don't consider a shoulder quick dump valve really necessary but this is only my opinion.

For diving in open water with currents (eg the Brothers in the Red Sea) a BP/W is different from a jacket BCD, in my experience. With a BP/W it takes me a bit longer to get down while jumping from a RIB (ie, negative entry is a bit less straightforward unless you suck your wing dry from the inflator before the jump: not really nice for hygiena). The BP/W also is rather a bit less streamlined than a good jacket BCD (fabric flopping on your back is less hydrodynamic than fabric wrapped around your body) but that's no big difference.

But a SS BP/W suppresses the need for 6 to 8 pounds of lead and that's nice when you need that weight or more. Waist pockets are more practical IMO with a BP/W than a weightbelt. Instead of both, I often use one OMS (small) mask waist pouch where I can also put some lead, I find it convenient and versatile.

The crotch strap is definately a nice feature.

Overall I prefer my SS BP/W than my jacket-style BCDs for temperate (Mediterranean) or cold (Alpine lakes) waters.

Thanks for an informative and objective analysis. Have had a quick check of OMS but couldn't locate any wing with the valve you mentioned -don't suppose you have a link handy?

Quite a bit of my diving seems to be negative entry because of the currents so I guess I'll just have to get used to sucking my bladder dry . Is the reason it's hard to fully deflate cos you can't 'squeeze' it when it's on?

Cheers,
John

 

[Tortuga68]

The only OMS wings (I have two) that I've seen with top dump valves are their redundant bladder wings for doubles - but I think frogman may be referring to wings that have an intergrated dump in the inflator (which I personally don't like)

I have no problem with deflating my bladder orally (there's a double entendre laden post if I've ever made one)

 

[hg frogman]

I believe that the OMS single bladder wings with retraction bungees have a quick dump valve on the right shoulder. I don't own one, but that's also what I have just seen on OMS website (OMS Official Site - Technical SCUBA Equipment http://www.OMSdive.com).

Though intended primarily for doubles, the smaller of these bungeed wings (45 lbs) can also be used for single tank diving, but they are not optimal for this - it seems that they do the job, though. There have been lots of heated debates on this board about these "do it all" wings.

OMS don't make any quick dump integrated in the corrugated hose elbow (and I really don't like this kind of dump either).

Also it seems that OMS has just changed the fabric of their inner bladder now (?) so what I said about Oxycheq vs OMS bladders may be obsolete.

I owned once an OMS 32 lbs wing for single tank (with no bungees) but I sold it.

Yes a wing is a bit longer to deflate for negative entries, partly because you cannot squeeze it under your arms when it's on, partly because it has usually no quick dump valve on the shoulder. No big deal but good to know.

 

[Tortuga68]

I believe that the OMS single bladder wings with retraction bungees have a quick dump valve on the right shoulder

Yeah you're right

But only on doubles wings I think

Not necessary anyway IMO

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

True... Make sure the strap is threaded properly (it often isn't) and then wet the rig before you tighten it down on the tank. Or... Bring your own travel rig with the strap that I provided a link to. I still don't see that problem as a reason to doff your rig underwater and attempt a fix - get your buddy to do it. It's tough to make happen underwater if it's not on someone's back anyway.

...But hey, that's just my opinion - the solution that has worked for me, that I'm suggesting to you. You may have another solution - or another opinion.



Kern, *I* wasn't the focus of the thread that you posted a link to - the focus was Tobin's customer, whom I stuck up for. You're right - there weren't nice things said to me, but worse, there weren't nice things said to his customer. It was out of control.

I didn't ask for the thread to be closed. NetDoc decided to do that, and I have a feeling it was at Tobin's request. The entire thread didn't look good for anyone, and frankly, it's Tobin's place... So if he didn't like it, it was his choice what to do with it.

...Which is probably why the thread is closed (and apparently deleted) today. I would agree that this was probably the best thing, but my opinion wasn't the deciding factor.

Re: The Freedom Plate: Eric and I have already talked. The plate isn't mine - I have never purchased one from him or ScubaToys. I did, however, use one of my guy's, because I'd heard a lot about it here and was excited to try it out. I'm sure that Eric knows who I'm talking about.

The plate came to me because my guy asked me to "fix it." Apparently, he couldn't figure it out either, so he brought it to work with him one day. I spent quite a bit of time rigging and rerigging, and my frustration plainly shows through in my review.

For what it's worth, I had no idea that Eric was available here or anywhere online. You have to understand - I see all kinds of funky new products all the time, and when something doesn't work, there's rarely someone to call and talk to... So we never bothered to try to get in touch with someone regarding the plate and why it wasn't working - it was an easy assumption that somebody simply wasn't thinking when they made the plate. Most new products are like that - which is why I said I was the opposite of "sheltered," and it's a dramatically incorrect assumption that I'm "closed minded" or "stuck in the past" or "set in my ways" or whatever I was accused of. Believe me, that's the opposite description of me, and the reason why I'm so attached to backplates, wings, brass n glass, solid rubber items, and the lack of color in fabrics... I see it all, often, and know what works and what doesn't.

Based on my brief discussions with Eric, though, I can see that plainly, it wasn't rigged properly when it was brought to me, and the different things I did to rig it weren't correct, either. What's worse is that there were no screws connecting the plate to it's channel when it was brought to me - there were standard backplate bolts, topped with nylocks. These nylocks don't come with the plate, apparently - I had no way of knowing that.

The bottom line is that the plate made absolutely no sense whatsoever rigged the way it was, and without a center channel, the nylocks were only padded by the cam bands, which did a terrible job under tension. The harness rubbed, the nylocks were painful, and the whole thing was just a really bad idea - which is exactly what I reported in my review.

...But in studying the picture on ScubaToys and discussing things with Eric, clearly, the poor review is unwarranted and undeserved because of a poor rigging job. Let's face it - I had no idea that the plate wasn't supposed to be rigged like any other plate, and apparently my guy wasn't either because he brought it to me in frustration.

I've written the guys at ScubaToys and asked them to remove my review. An apology to Eric for the poor review - clearly, the product needs to be assembled properly and rigged properly before a valid review can be written... And it wasn't.

For what it's worth, I'm sure that my guy will be thrilled to find out that his purchase may not have been in vain after all. Frankly, I'd like to dive the plate again after it's been rigged properly, because it's a new idea with clear promise and something that we all wanted to see work.

Kern, for what it's worth, I have never attacked anyone personally or called anyone names... All of my posts have been directed towards gear or styles or skills or whatever... Never personal insults, which is against the ScubaBoard Terms of Service (TOS), and I'd appreciate reciprocated respect. Fair?

Sea Jay,

Thank you for retracting your comments and explaining the situation.
It says a lot that you manned up and took responsibility for your words. It would have been just as easy to run and hide and lay low for a while, but you stepped up. I'm impressed, thank you.
This ended much better than I could have hoped for.

I still need to know though for tracking info to find out who originlly got the plate and from where, or if it's even mine. I have heard rumors that somebody may be duplicating these plates or making something similar to mine. It's possible that it not even a true Freedom Plate.

If it's the latest design that Scuba Toys carries it will have a 3 digit number stamped on the front and a "USA" stamped below that right above the crotch strap slot.
It should have two holes in the plate that hold the rail on that are countersunk through the front. These holes are on 5 1/2" centers.

There are some runs that where done in the past that did not have serial numbers or markings but with those the rails were welded on permanently and there were no holes. I still need to see it to determine if it's one of mine.
Every plate on this latest design run has a number stamped on it specifically for this purpose. I keep track of where every single plate goes.

If you can get the time I would really appreciate if you could snap a digital photo of the front and back and post it up here so I can see it.

Thank you.

Eric Sedletzky
ESD-Freedom Plate