Ditching the poodle jacket

[Tortuga68]

/group hug

 

[Deep South Divers]

Thanks for the re-review and it's great to see someone big enough to admit they were wrong. Again, I mean that. Freedom plate's back on the menu

Good. Hey, I was wrong... No worries. I'm human - I'm gonna be wrong sometimes. Sorry to have screwed everybody up over it - it's a bit emabarrassing.

You did studiously however avoid any reply to me with regard to my not so unusual scenarios.

I thought I addressed them... I dunno... At this point, I'm a bit exhausted in defending my position, so I'm pretty much not caring much anymore. Do what you want - if you want real answers, go diving and find out for yourself. Always worked for me.

...and if you've squeezed in a couple of billion dives...

Lol... It's not a "couple billion." It's several thousand. I dive 2-4 dives every day, at least 5 days a week, just like anyone who does something as a full-time job. I've owned this company for about five years. The math tells all. When I'm not diving for work, I'm diving for pleasure - my vacation this month will be with Stuart Cove's in Nassau... Lookin' for big palegics in warm, clear water this time.

Prior to diving full-time, I had maybe 1500-2000 dives from 1986 to 2005 - more than half of those locally in shallow blackwater conditions.

...So it's not "billions of dives," but it's full-time, and almost all of my experience is as a working diver... Disentanglements, prop and zinc changes, recoveries, salvage, and a ton of boat cleaning. Last August I did a bunch of work for our local phone company trenching across a 2-mile wide river (which also included about a dozen tower climbs), and in December my team and I finished a huge coldwater underwater epoxy project at the GA Aquarium in Atlanta. This spring I'll be starting a deepwater (250+') recovery project in the Atlantic Ocean that will take me from Nova Scotia to Venezuela on seven very specific dives. The payoff potential for these is huge.

Meanwhile, every few months my show airs on the Discovery Science Channel that shows my search for the Tybee Bomb (lost nuke off Savannah), so every few months I find myself involved in other really amazing and rewarding projects.

Imagine how frustrating it is to argue with someone who's an accountant or lawyer or nurse or whatever it is that other posters do for a living (i.e. every day), who is basing their opinions on the few dozen dives that they've done over their entire lives. I'm exhausted with it. Do what you want, and whatever works for you, k guys?

YouTube - Monty Python: The Argument Clinic: Director's Cut

Heh. Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm experiencing. Time to go get a cup of coffee and get back into the water.

Your quite the revisionist. You may not have been the focus to start, but you were certainly the dog pile as Net Doc puts it, that became the focus quick enough.

No, I was never the focus, Kern. Flattered that you think I'm so important, but it's simply not the case.

NetDoc explained to me what he meant by "dogpile," and it wasn't me. But hey, you're gonna believe whatever you want to believe, so... Feel free. I'm not going to debate it with you.

You had a lot to say in Tobins forum. When challenged you admitted to never having seen the gear you were talking about.

I wasn't talking about gear - I was talking about the way that Tobin was talking to his customer in a public forum. My extent of gear mention was, "Looks like nice stuff, but with this attitude, I wouldn't buy a thing from you."

...And my sentiments were repeated here in this thread... Which makes anyone who says otherwise the "revisionist," not me.

That didn't stop you from going on, & on, & on of course. And no, only your dog pile was removed, the thread is still there.

If it's still there, Kern, then feel free to go back and reread it. You may find your comments unjustified.

The link you sent was a link to a single post from NetDoc saying, "Dogpile removed" or something to that effect. Friends here have verified that it's not just me that sees that. If the thread's still there, then feel free to go back and reread it. I'm just not interested in attempting to find it myself - NetDoc was clear that he wanted the whole thing shut down, and I have no intentions of revisiting Tobin's area - especially when he feels justified talking to people like he talked to me, his client, and several other posters.

You see a freedom plate, you know nothing about it, but you're happy to condemn it on an international site. You couldn't figure it out so of course its just rubbish. Is this the sort of behaviour that I should respect?

I don't care if you "respect" ME or not, Kern... I offered a "truce" out of mutual respect and respect for the ScubaBoard TOS. So far, I haven't reported your offensive posts and personal attacks, but I'll be happy to if you don't behave. If you can't adhere to a truce and adhere to TOS, you don't belong here.

You don't like to be called a bore, but it's OK for you to imply that others are liars. If you don't want to be seen as a bore, stop behaving like one.

I don't care what you call me... But attacking people personally is something that I never have done - because it's against TOS. It's also really poor form. Saying to someone, "I don't believe that" isn't the same as calling someone a "liar," for one is a personal attack (against TOS) and one is not. For what it's worth, meanwhile, I've been personally called a "liar," a "bore," an "idiot" and more right here on this thread. That's against TOS, and that's all there is to it. Do it again, Kern, and I'm reporting you. I've been nice twice - check yourself or I'll check you for you.

I see divers remove their gear all the time to get bugs, *dozens* of times, in fact.

Sas, it might be time for some new buddies. You and your dive buddy there have mentioned this several times, but aside from THAT experience, I haven't seen anyone honestly be able to say that they've seen it, too, in separate situations. I contest that anyone that separates themselves from their life support system at depth is not diving safely. If you're of another opinion, then great... But you wouldn't catch me diving with someone who thought it was common practice to remove their life support in persuit of a lobster in a hole too narrow and too deep to wear their rig.

A buddy of mine is particularly fond of this method and barely a bug hunting dive has gone by without him ditching his gear and crawling under a ledge. (I think InTheDrink might have even seen him do this as John has been around when this buddy has been bug hunting - unsuccessfully though - to verify but I can't remember if he needed to ditch his gear that time! ) Edit: should have read all posts before replying, I see Inthedrink already answered this

Yeah, that's the guy that I would worry about - this "John" guy. Have you seen any other divers do this?

I had a first stage leak underwater that was fixed by a buddy underwater - from what he told me after after it was a screw in the reg that kept coming lose. It had happened on the surface, we fixed it and then it happened at depth, fixed and the dive continued on as normal.

Fine. Did you doff your rig to make it happen?

I would recommend not diving in the first place with an errant piece of gear - especially a regulator - but if you had a "quick fix," then fine. Did it require you to doff your gear to fix it?

I don't know why I would surface from a 35m dive just to fix something like this.

You were diving 100' feet with a regulator that you plainly knew was errant? And you feel that this qualifies you to give others advice?

If I had been by myself I could have taken my rig off to look at it properly had I *really* wanted to.

I HOPE that you wouldn't dive by yourself... In 100+' of water... With a reg that you know wasn't working right (that had "loose screws")... And doff your gear. Sas, I don't know you, but I know you well enough to think that you're smarter than that.

And too smart to be giving people advice to do the same.

But the idea that a first stage leak would lead to surfacing is just not necessarily going to happen. Depends if it is fixable or not and if I am comfortable with the fix.

I would think that a repeated issue with your breathing apparatus in 100' of water would lead to you CHOOSING to go ahead and surface and fix the problem permenantly before continuing. If I was your buddy and saw the issue repeatedly happening, I would have thumbed the dive and fixed the issue just so that I wouldn't have to deal with the emergency... Not to mention possible catastrophe or injury. It is, after all, kinda important for your regs to work properly...

Did you ever figure out what was leaking and fix the problem permenantly? What was it?

My guess is that it was a leaking LP port plug - which is easily fixed by tightening it up with an allen wrench. If that's the case, then it should have been done when you noticed the problem topside... Before it became a problem at depth.

No big deal if you can ditch your rig and replace it. As I said in an earlier example, my harness had been adjusted and fiddled with and after I forgot to check the crotch strap. The previous user had loosened this too much and it unthreaded on a dive, just took my rig off and fixed it, was no drama at all.

Are you not checking your rig before you dive? Is your buddy not checking your rig before you dive? How did you and your buddy miss a crotch strap dangling down the fronts of your shins if it was "unthreaded?"

How does a crotch strap become "unthreaded," anyway?

Dude, I'm starting to get the impression that you're not diving safely. But worse is that you're giving others advice to do the same.

This is done in places where there are restrictions. I have seen video of it, but never done it myself.

I do it at least two or three times a month in an OOG drill with buddies, so that we're practiced and sharp and can handle the situation. I've never experienced an OOG behind a restriction for real.

Perhaps you should try it and practice it.

Anyway, basically there are situations where you may want to remove your gear underwater.

I would think that more important would be to be prepared and well-practiced for OOGs, and to have surely working regulators. Maybe the focus should be those things and not "how to separate yourself from your life support system," Sas.

Most of the time no, and most of these examples you have other options than ditching your gear, but bug hunting is not one of those and I see gear removal a lot.

Sas, if that's the case, then you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Time to get some more instruction, and separate yourself from people who are diving unsafely.

It is really no big deal at all, and is a nice extra skill to have.

You know, I've heard that line before - including the guy who was diving with 108 lbs. of lead on his body... The guy who I mentioned earlier that I did a body recovery of. In fact, I believe that that was the last thing he told me the last time I saw him alive.

I also heard that from my roommate in Tucson, who was riding a sportbike slightly intoxicated (with a REALLY intoxicated passenger on the back). His exact words were, "It's no big deal - look, I've got a Dad already, 'k?" He hit a car making a left in front of him - at a high rate of speed - and died instantly. The drunk passenger actually used his body as a cushion during the impact, and is a vegetable - but alive - today.

I also heard that from a buddy of mine that was killed streetracing - "Aw, it's no big deal..." He, too, isn't around today. I was the one that had to break the news to his 7 year old daughter that his daddy wasn't ever coming home. Man, that was tough.

Sas, when you're having to tell people, "It's no big deal," or, "I know what I'm doing," or, "It's safe - just watch," then it's a big, fat indicator that what you're doing isn't safe.

I'm not saying that you're gonna wrap yourself around a pole or drown in a local river or broadside a car... I'm just giving you examples of what I've seen in the past. These things that you're talking about, Sas... They're not safe. And from what you're saying, you're trading REAL safety skills (having working regs, checking gear before you enter the water, keeping your life support on) with skills that aren't so safe, then advising others to do the same.

Should I not say something when my experience has clearly showed me the fallacy in this thought?

 

[Deep South Divers]

Sea Jay,

Thank you for retracting your comments and explaining the situation.
It says a lot that you manned up and took responsibility for your words. It would have been just as easy to run and hide and lay low for a while, but you stepped up. I'm impressed, thank you.
This ended much better than I could have hoped for.

Hey, no sweat, Eric. Fair is fair, right? I screwed up - in my line of work, it's not a matter of "manning up" or whatever - ya just gotta face the facts and do what you can to fix it. Sometimes a life depends on it, and sometimes a lot of money depends on it. Do it all the time, and it gets to be "instinctual," so you always think that way and never have to pause to consider what to do when you screw up... Ya just fix it and make it right.

Joe took the undeserved review off of ScubaToys today. Gone. I'll rewrite when we reconfigure and redive the plate.

I still need to know though for tracking info to find out who originlly got the plate and from where, or if it's even mine. I have heard rumors that somebody may be duplicating these plates or making something similar to mine. It's possible that it not even a true Freedom Plate.

If it's the latest design that Scuba Toys carries it will have a 3 digit number stamped on the front and a "USA" stamped below that right above the crotch strap slot.
It should have two holes in the plate that hold the rail on that are countersunk through the front. These holes are on 5 1/2" centers.

Ummmmm... 11" centers? My other STA fit the plate... And a standard wing fit the plate, too... Both of those are 11" centers.

The rear channel was bolted, not welded... How would you get a wing on a welded Freedom Plate?

Eric, with all due respect (and a bit of humility and embarrassment, too), are you messin' with me? Defensive mode, maybe? Welded channel? 5 1/2" centers? How would a diver put a wing on their rig with 5 1/2" centers?

There are some runs that where done in the past that did not have serial numbers or markings but with those the rails were welded on permanently and there were no holes. I still need to see it to determine if it's one of mine.
Every plate on this latest design run has a number stamped on it specifically for this purpose. I keep track of where every single plate goes.

If you can get the time I would really appreciate if you could snap a digital photo of the front and back and post it up here so I can see it.

Thank you.

Eric Sedletzky
ESD-Freedom Plate

He's not working again until the 12th of March - and I'm in Nassau, Bahamas until then, anyway. But I did call him last night and ask him a bunch of questions and told him about this thread and what was going on. We'll be screwing around with the plate again at that time and I'll get some photos of it and post them. Maybe that'll explain why I wrote the review like I did - and maybe dispel the accusations that I've endured.

The owner of the plate is a member here in ScubaBoard, too, and when I asked him to check out what was going on, he was a bit embarrassed, too. Not sure if he's willing to post name and numbers and any other sort of identification (gonna leave it up to him). I think he feels responsible - you and I both know that he was the one that put those bolts in the plate like that, and/or could have talked to you or followed the instructions, or whatever. I kinda chewed on him about it a little, seeing as it caused me a bit of public embarrassment.

 

[InTheDrink]

Good. Hey, I was wrong... No worries. I'm human - I'm gonna be wrong sometimes. Sorry to have screwed everybody up over it - it's a bit emabarrassing.



I thought I addressed them... I dunno... At this point, I'm a bit exhausted in defending my position, so I'm pretty much not caring much anymore. Do what you want - if you want real answers, go diving and find out for yourself. Always worked for me.



Lol... It's not a "couple billion." It's several thousand. I dive 2-4 dives every day, at least 5 days a week, just like anyone who does something as a full-time job. I've owned this company for about five years. The math tells all. When I'm not diving for work, I'm diving for pleasure - my vacation this month will be with Stuart Cove's in Nassau... Lookin' for big palegics in warm, clear water this time.

Prior to diving full-time, I had maybe 1500-2000 dives from 1986 to 2005 - more than half of those locally in shallow blackwater conditions.

...So it's not "billions of dives," but it's full-time, and almost all of my experience is as a working diver... Disentanglements, prop and zinc changes, recoveries, salvage, and a ton of boat cleaning. Last August I did a bunch of work for our local phone company trenching across a 2-mile wide river (which also included about a dozen tower climbs), and in December my team and I finished a huge coldwater underwater epoxy project at the GA Aquarium in Atlanta. This spring I'll be starting a deepwater (250+') recovery project in the Atlantic Ocean that will take me from Nova Scotia to Venezuela on seven very specific dives. The payoff potential for these is huge.

Meanwhile, every few months my show airs on the Discovery Science Channel that shows my search for the Tybee Bomb (lost nuke off Savannah), so every few months I find myself involved in other really amazing and rewarding projects.

Imagine how frustrating it is to argue with someone who's an accountant or lawyer or nurse or whatever it is that other posters do for a living (i.e. every day), who is basing their opinions on the few dozen dives that they've done over their entire lives. I'm exhausted with it. Do what you want, and whatever works for you, k guys?



Heh. Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm experiencing. Time to go get a cup of coffee and get back into the water.



No, I was never the focus, Kern. Flattered that you think I'm so important, but it's simply not the case.

NetDoc explained to me what he meant by "dogpile," and it wasn't me. But hey, you're gonna believe whatever you want to believe, so... Feel free. I'm not going to debate it with you.



I wasn't talking about gear - I was talking about the way that Tobin was talking to his customer in a public forum. My extent of gear mention was, "Looks like nice stuff, but with this attitude, I wouldn't buy a thing from you."

...And my sentiments were repeated here in this thread... Which makes anyone who says otherwise the "revisionist," not me.



If it's still there, Kern, then feel free to go back and reread it. You may find your comments unjustified.

The link you sent was a link to a single post from NetDoc saying, "Dogpile removed" or something to that effect. Friends here have verified that it's not just me that sees that. If the thread's still there, then feel free to go back and reread it. I'm just not interested in attempting to find it myself - NetDoc was clear that he wanted the whole thing shut down, and I have no intentions of revisiting Tobin's area - especially when he feels justified talking to people like he talked to me, his client, and several other posters.



I don't care if you "respect" ME or not, Kern... I offered a "truce" out of mutual respect and respect for the ScubaBoard TOS. So far, I haven't reported your offensive posts and personal attacks, but I'll be happy to if you don't behave. If you can't adhere to a truce and adhere to TOS, you don't belong here.



I don't care what you call me... But attacking people personally is something that I never have done - because it's against TOS. It's also really poor form. Saying to someone, "I don't believe that" isn't the same as calling someone a "liar," for one is a personal attack (against TOS) and one is not. For what it's worth, meanwhile, I've been personally called a "liar," a "bore," an "idiot" and more right here on this thread. That's against TOS, and that's all there is to it. Do it again, Kern, and I'm reporting you. I've been nice twice - check yourself or I'll check you for you.



Sas, it might be time for some new buddies. You and your dive buddy there have mentioned this several times, but aside from THAT experience, I haven't seen anyone honestly be able to say that they've seen it, too, in separate situations. I contest that anyone that separates themselves from their life support system at depth is not diving safely. If you're of another opinion, then great... But you wouldn't catch me diving with someone who thought it was common practice to remove their life support in persuit of a lobster in a hole too narrow and too deep to wear their rig.



Yeah, that's the guy that I would worry about - this "John" guy. Have you seen any other divers do this?



Fine. Did you doff your rig to make it happen?

I would recommend not diving in the first place with an errant piece of gear - especially a regulator - but if you had a "quick fix," then fine. Did it require you to doff your gear to fix it?



You were diving 100' feet with a regulator that you plainly knew was errant? And you feel that this qualifies you to give others advice?



I HOPE that you wouldn't dive by yourself... In 100+' of water... With a reg that you know wasn't working right (that had "loose screws")... And doff your gear. Sas, I don't know you, but I know you well enough to think that you're smarter than that.

And too smart to be giving people advice to do the same.



I would think that a repeated issue with your breathing apparatus in 100' of water would lead to you CHOOSING to go ahead and surface and fix the problem permenantly before continuing. If I was your buddy and saw the issue repeatedly happening, I would have thumbed the dive and fixed the issue just so that I wouldn't have to deal with the emergency... Not to mention possible catastrophe or injury. It is, after all, kinda important for your regs to work properly...

Did you ever figure out what was leaking and fix the problem permenantly? What was it?

My guess is that it was a leaking LP port plug - which is easily fixed by tightening it up with an allen wrench. If that's the case, then it should have been done when you noticed the problem topside... Before it became a problem at depth.



Are you not checking your rig before you dive? Is your buddy not checking your rig before you dive? How did you and your buddy miss a crotch strap dangling down the fronts of your shins if it was "unthreaded?"

How does a crotch strap become "unthreaded," anyway?

Dude, I'm starting to get the impression that you're not diving safely. But worse is that you're giving others advice to do the same.



I do it at least two or three times a month in an OOG drill with buddies, so that we're practiced and sharp and can handle the situation. I've never experienced an OOG behind a restriction for real.

Perhaps you should try it and practice it.



I would think that more important would be to be prepared and well-practiced for OOGs, and to have surely working regulators. Maybe the focus should be those things and not "how to separate yourself from your life support system," Sas.



Sas, if that's the case, then you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Time to get some more instruction, and separate yourself from people who are diving unsafely.



You know, I've heard that line before - including the guy who was diving with 108 lbs. of lead on his body... The guy who I mentioned earlier that I did a body recovery of. In fact, I believe that that was the last thing he told me the last time I saw him alive.

I also heard that from my roommate in Tucson, who was riding a sportbike slightly intoxicated (with a REALLY intoxicated passenger on the back). His exact words were, "It's no big deal - look, I've got a Dad already, 'k?" He hit a car making a left in front of him - at a high rate of speed - and died instantly. The drunk passenger actually used his body as a cushion during the impact, and is a vegetable - but alive - today.

I also heard that from a buddy of mine that was killed streetracing - "Aw, it's no big deal..." He, too, isn't around today. I was the one that had to break the news to his 7 year old daughter that his daddy wasn't ever coming home. Man, that was tough.

Sas, when you're having to tell people, "It's no big deal," or, "I know what I'm doing," or, "It's safe - just watch," then it's a big, fat indicator that what you're doing isn't safe.

I'm not saying that you're gonna wrap yourself around a pole or drown in a local river or broadside a car... I'm just giving you examples of what I've seen in the past. These things that you're talking about, Sas... They're not safe. And from what you're saying, you're trading REAL safety skills (having working regs, checking gear before you enter the water, keeping your life support on) with skills that aren't so safe, then advising others to do the same.

Should I not say something when my experience has clearly showed me the fallacy in this thought?

Yours is a difficult post to reply to.

I can tell you fore square that Sas is a very skilled and safe diver. She's got a cool head under and out of the water so I'd be slow to level personal attacks at her, which you ARE doing.

You haven't read her post properly at all and that's annoying. A, I'm John. B, the divers that de-rigged aren't just buddy's, I believe it's fairly common practice in places. And the death stats haven't raced through the ceiling.

Making a comparison with someone wearing 104lbs or whatever of lead isjust going to piss people off. It's insulting and I think that's your problem.

You've got a lot of really good things to say, but you say it so poorly that you just get people's backs up. Doesn't work for you, doesn't work for others.

This is a shame, cos whilst I mightn't agree with you on everything you've a lot of experience to bring to bear on any conversation.

And just so you sleep safe at night, I'd spend less time worrying about Sas. She's entirely capable of looking after herself and plenty more all by herself.

J

 

[InTheDrink]

Other thing: by a couple of billion I simply meant you clearly have a big advantage in terms of experience than most of us. But it's actually quite hard to evaluate the merit of your suggestions/wisdom because of your inflexible position.

I know you've had a hard time on this thread and I for one really appreciate your retraction on the freedom plate, just out of principle (since I've never dived any kind of plate). So your knowledge is good, your spirit is good. You just need to work on how you carry the message mate. Thanks again for your input (even if it's occasionally raised my already stressed out blood pressure)

J

 

[Sas]

Sas, it might be time for some new buddies. You and your dive buddy there have mentioned this several times, but aside from THAT experience, I haven't seen anyone honestly be able to say that they've seen it, too, in separate situations. I contest that anyone that separates themselves from their life support system at depth is not diving safely. If you're of another opinion, then great... But you wouldn't catch me diving with someone who thought it was common practice to remove their life support in persuit of a lobster in a hole too narrow and too deep to wear their rig.

Fair enough, you can choose who you dive with.

Yeah, that's the guy that I would worry about - this "John" guy. Have you seen any other divers do this?

Yes. And you didn't read my post properly now did you if you think it was John (i.e. the OP) that was doing this. Not reading my post properly is a theme of this post of yours.

Fine. Did you doff your rig to make it happen?

I discussed this in my original post. No I did not, but I could have if I wanted. No big deal.

I would recommend not diving in the first place with an errant piece of gear - especially a regulator - but if you had a "quick fix," then fine. Did it require you to doff your gear to fix it?

Again, read my post properly.

You were diving 100' feet with a regulator that you plainly knew was errant? And you feel that this qualifies you to give others advice?

Sure. If you read my post properly you would notice that it had a problem on the surface, I fixed it and presumed it was completely fixed. At depth it leaked again.

I HOPE that you wouldn't dive by yourself... In 100+' of water... With a reg that you know wasn't working right (that had "loose screws")... And doff your gear. Sas, I don't know you, but I know you well enough to think that you're smarter than that.

I thought it was fixed. It was not a LP port, it was the screw on the top of the first stage.

I would think that a repeated issue with your breathing apparatus in 100' of water would lead to you CHOOSING to go ahead and surface and fix the problem permenantly before continuing. If I was your buddy and saw the issue repeatedly happening, I would have thumbed the dive and fixed the issue just so that I wouldn't have to deal with the emergency... Not to mention possible catastrophe or injury. It is, after all, kinda important for your regs to work properly...

It was not an emergency at all. It was a slight leaking in my first stage, that my buddy fixed. If it had happened again underwater, I would have called the dive. But some problems are fixable underwater. I try to fix problems at depth, before surfacing. But if you prefer to end dives, your call.

Did you ever figure out what was leaking and fix the problem permenantly? What was it?

Yes. It never happened again after this time at depth.

My guess is that it was a leaking LP port plug - which is easily fixed by tightening it up with an allen wrench. If that's the case, then it should have been done when you noticed the problem topside... Before it became a problem at depth.

No, not an LP port plug. And if you bothered to read my post, you would notice that the leak was fixed on the surface. Why did you bother to post with this big long rant without actually reading what I wrote?

Are you not checking your rig before you dive? Is your buddy not checking your rig before you dive? How did you and your buddy miss a crotch strap dangling down the fronts of your shins if it was "unthreaded?"

Nope, I did full checks. On the surface I do the BAR check and then when we jump in we do modified s-drills, we check our regs again and then we do bubble checks. But the crotch strap thing happened a while ago, when my checks were less thorough. But it was not 'danging down the front of my shins' - it happened underwater, must have only been slightly threaded and my movement dislodged it. Or the weight of my SMB on the butt d-ring.

How does a crotch strap become "unthreaded," anyway?

My crotch strap threads through my backplate. To unthread it you pull it out of the backplate holes.

Dude, I'm starting to get the impression that you're not diving safely. But worse is that you're giving others advice to do the same.

I'm starting to get the impression you do not read properly and that you have no idea what you are talking about. But, if you want to think I dive unsafely you are welcome to that opinion.

I do it at least two or three times a month in an OOG drill with buddies, so that we're practiced and sharp and can handle the situation. I've never experienced an OOG behind a restriction for real.

Perhaps you should try it and practice it.

I do OOG drills often also, plenty of practice here.

I would think that more important would be to be prepared and well-practiced for OOGs, and to have surely working regulators. Maybe the focus should be those things and not "how to separate yourself from your life support system," Sas.

Good for you. Me too. I have never separated myself from my life support system (I keep a sturdy hold of it if I have had to ditch my gear) and I have never had a reg failure other than this leak. So I think I'm doing pretty good.

If ditch and don is so dangerous, why is it taught in OW?

Sas, if that's the case, then you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Time to get some more instruction, and separate yourself from people who are diving unsafely.

I don't dive with bug hunters anymore, but not because I see it as unsafe. It is because I don't want to hang around for ages watching them under a ledge. I haven't heard of anyone carking it locally in the time that I have been diving, from bug hunting.

You know, I've heard that line before - including the guy who was diving with 108 lbs. of lead on his body... The guy who I mentioned earlier that I did a body recovery of. In fact, I believe that that was the last thing he told me the last time I saw him alive.

Yes, because comparing what I said to some diver using 108lb is a great comparison! /sarcasm. Why is ditch and don taught in OW if it is so unsafe? Why are people when doing trimix course required to ditch and don their rig with all their stages? And so on?

I also heard that from my roommate in Tucson, who was riding a sportbike slightly intoxicated (with a REALLY intoxicated passenger on the back). His exact words were, "It's no big deal - look, I've got a Dad already, 'k?" He hit a car making a left in front of him - at a high rate of speed - and died instantly. The drunk passenger actually used his body as a cushion during the impact, and is a vegetable - but alive - today.

Again, how is some eejit drink driving comparable to ditch and don? Are you kidding me?

I also heard that from a buddy of mine that was killed streetracing - "Aw, it's no big deal..." He, too, isn't around today. I was the one that had to break the news to his 7 year old daughter that his daddy wasn't ever coming home. Man, that was tough.

How is street racing comparable to ditch and don? You're getting more and more irrelevant.

Sas, when you're having to tell people, "It's no big deal," or, "I know what I'm doing," or, "It's safe - just watch," then it's a big, fat indicator that what you're doing isn't safe.

Again, why is ditch and don taught in OW if it is so unsafe?

I'm not saying that you're gonna wrap yourself around a pole or drown in a local river or broadside a car... I'm just giving you examples of what I've seen in the past.

Yea I can give you bajillions of emotive examples to try to make a point that is irrelevant to this topic.

These things that you're talking about, Sas... They're not safe. And from what you're saying, you're trading REAL safety skills (having working regs, checking gear before you enter the water, keeping your life support on) with skills that aren't so safe, then advising others to do the same.

I have not advised people to not have working regs and not to check gear. Gear can fail at depth you know? And it is good to have options for dealing with it. I maintain that ditch and don is not unsafe.

Should I not say something when my experience has clearly showed me the fallacy in this thought?

You can say whatever you want. You can talk about how unsafe I am, etc, etc. I don't care. I won't be diving with you. My buddies know I am a safe diver and that's all that matters to me.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Yours is a difficult post to reply to.

Why?

I can tell you fore square that Sas is a very skilled and safe diver. She's got a cool head under and out of the water so I'd be slow to level personal attacks at her, which you ARE doing.

It would be a personal attack if I called her names like "idiot," "liar," or other insult. The words, "You're too smart to be doing that - and too smart to be recommending that," are not personal attacks.

She may be insulted by my comments of, "That's unsafe," but I have not personally attacked her.

You haven't read her post properly at all and that's annoying. A, I'm John. B, the divers that de-rigged aren't just buddy's, I believe it's fairly common practice in places. And the death stats haven't raced through the ceiling.

No, you're right... And overall, scuba diving is a very safe sport, statistically... That's true. But clearly, choosing to separate yourself from your life support at depth is an unnecessary risk. I'm somewhat shocked that this continues to be debated, and that she is not in agreement with this.

Making a comparison with someone wearing 104lbs or whatever of lead isjust going to piss people off. It's insulting and I think that's your problem.

108 lbs of lead. When I pulled his lifeless body into the boat, his skin came off, he was so heavy. He'd been in the water for eight straight days.

Maybe the impact of poor skills or unnecessary risk isn't obvious to you. My point in telling you the story isn't to scare you or say that Sas is going to die or that fatality rates are going to "shoot through the roof" - it's to demonstrate that the consequences of unnecessary or poorly managed risk are dire. Why go anywhere near these consequences?

You've got a lot of really good things to say, but you say it so poorly that you just get people's backs up. Doesn't work for you, doesn't work for others.

Well, I would agree with that - apparently the things I've said here very MUCH "get people's backs up." My purpose of saying, "Hey, that's unsafe" isn't to make people happy and joyful... It's to make them think about what they're doing.

If a new, teenage driver (I have two of them in my house) told me one day, "SeaJay, you have no idea how to DRIVE," (an actual comment made by one of them because I was driving 2-3mph under the speed limit), not only would that indicate to me that they don't know what they're talking about, but that they don't KNOW that they don't know what they're talking about. My response to that teen, was, "Well, you're not going to be driving any of my cars, then." She was shocked, and assumed that my comment was made to her just to "get her back" or whatever. That had nothing to do with it... I was doing what I felt necessary to protect my daughter, her passengers, and probably my car, too... Not to mention whatever innocent person was in the way of a reckless driver.

As a parent, that's my responsibility. As a fellow diver, all I can do is say, "Guys, that's unsafe," and choose not to be around it so I am not presented with the problem that I see as a possible consequence.

This is a shame, cos whilst I mightn't agree with you on everything you've a lot of experience to bring to bear on any conversation.

Well, thanks... Whether your feelings (or hers) are hurt or not, I'm trying to help. Same with the plate deal... If there's a poor design, then I want to tell others not to buy it. And if I am wrong about that and make a mistake, it's helpful (and the right thing to do) to say, "I'm wrong, sorry for the problems, I'll fix it" - and do so.

Other thing: by a couple of billion I simply meant you clearly have a big advantage in terms of experience than most of us.

Oh, I'm sorry... I thought you were being sarcastic. Tough to read meaning sometimes on a forum.

But it's actually quite hard to evaluate the merit of your suggestions/wisdom because of your inflexible position.

I understand that - and I respect that.

...But my inflexible position is a consequence of experience.

When I first started diving, I had no opinions - only curiosity. I dove a lot and read a lot and learned a lot - and tried everything under the sun.

Today, I still enjoy seeing and trying (and usually laughing at) new gear and new techniques. Some of them I have adopted anyway, even though they originally struck me as useless or unsafe or problematic. I am not above changing my mind on something, or admitting I am wrong. I am, after all, human... But new methods or ways of thinking must be considered conservatively, and historically, it's a bad idea to separate yourself from your life support whether you're a scuba diver or a pilot or a skydiver or a fireman. If you want to be open to the idea of something different, then it must be repetitively proven to be a good idea for you to adopt a new ideal.

...Then, once you've done all of that and adopted the ideal, you, too, will have an inflexible opinion, challenged only by consistent results that eventually prove that another ideal should be considered.

I know you've had a hard time on this thread and I for one really appreciate your retraction on the freedom plate, just out of principle (since I've never dived any kind of plate). So your knowledge is good, your spirit is good. You just need to work on how you carry the message mate. Thanks again for your input (even if it's occasionally raised my already stressed out blood pressure)

J

Ah, don't let it, my friend and hang buddy that's kept me from surfacing too quickly. It's just an internet forum, after all, and forums like this have been the playing field for flame wars for decades.

Sorry about the mixup on names - I had forgotten that Sas was female, too, and probably called her "him" in several posts. No worries - after all, we all have our own opinions anyway.

 

[InTheDrink]

SeaJay,

Thanks for your post. It's a shame you don't think before you speak! Remember the drill - stop, think, breath then SHOUT!

You've clearly gotten the wrong side of parenthood. I'll get there too no doubt (I've a 4 and a 6 yr old, they're not driving just yet, indeed nor am I).

But it seems (and can't you guess I've been trying to analyse this) that you are taking the old familiar parental 'just don't do this' route. Why? Cos I said 'Don't'. That's the why.

That's exactly what you're doing here. You're making absolute statements but backing them up with examples that don't apply (108lbs) or are simply silly (drunk driver). They have no application to this discussion and you haven't actually offered any 'real' reason for not doffing and donning. You keep coming up with strange examples to prove your point but don't answer the simple questions being asked of you about how you would deal with situation x. Your answer often seems to be 'don't let it happen in the first place'. And we're back to the car and drunk analogy - and somehow your daughter's still pregnant! (see, stupid ****ing analogies can be annoying).

You've clearly got a lot of experience. Just saying 'Cos I know' isn't going to help me evaluate whether your opinions are worth taking on board or not. If there's a good reason for doing, or not doing something, then illustrate your answers or dissect others' responses properly. But bland but irritating platitudes don't help anyone. Specially not your argument.

Oh, and read posts before going to town on them too!!!

J

 

[InTheDrink]

It would be a personal attack if I called her names like "idiot," "liar," or other insult. The words, "You're too smart to be doing that - and too smart to be recommending that," are not personal attacks.

She may be insulted by my comments of, "That's unsafe," but I have not personally attacked her.

You essentially said that you didn't believe that I saw people doff their rigs to get bugs.

That is absolutely as insulting as calling someone a liar and actually worse, given specifics were already mentioned. That's not attacking the argument, that's calling the poster's veracity into question. Big, BIG, insult. So don't get too cuddly with yourself just cos you didn't call anyone a liar directly. The implication was exactly the same.

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to set you straight. After all, I've lost most of my ballast and the only thing between me and Mars and fast is your sorry ass

J

 

[gcbryan]

Everyone has different experiences. If it's someone's experience that you should never need to take your BC off so be it. That's their experience and/or opinion.

That's not everyone's experience or opinion. Regardless of anyone else's opinion you should probably try to keep your gear on and if you run into a situation where taking it off seems like the right thing to do...do it!

Personally, I'd try to keep it on. If stuck in kelp near the surface and at that moment your buddy decides it's OK for him to surface...take your gear off might be an option if cutting or untangling isn't working.