Ditching the poodle jacket

[Sas]

I get solo diving and I get possibly having to take gear off even though it's never quite come to that for me. I don't understand bug hunting and deep spear fishing.

Just because it doesn't interest me or make sense to me means nothing of course but since I don't see it discussed very often...what is the attraction?

I get that you end up with food but that would probably be cheaper from the grocery store. I also get that it is a sport to you.

What I don't get it doing something where you either take your gear off to craw under something for a lobster or where you are constantly getting entangled in steel leader line all for a fish?

I guess the answer is that it's fun and the fish tastes good but it doesn't seem worth it to me. What am I missing (if anything)?

I'll start by saying I have no interest at all in bug hunting or deep spearfishing or anything like that. But I can understand why some people do. Lobster is expensive here (I think around $40/kg) as are abalone (another thing that people go after), so people like to get their own. I have had friends ask if I can bring them back lobster or abalone as they can't justify the cost. Scalloping is also common.

Some people find it fun too, I guess perhaps in a similar way to hunting other creatures.

Also there are environmental issues as well. Some people prefer to catch their own bugs as craypots capture other creatures as well (like octopus), and for things like scalloping, it is much more environmentally friendly to eat scallops that are diver collected rather than ones that are dredged.

 

[Deep South Divers]

I thought it was fixed. And the regs were pressurised for a long time when I get in the water. They were also checked by someone who services regs and they said my surface fix should stop the problem.



They were not my regs, they were on loan. They had worked fine for the two days of diving I had done before hand and they worked for the second dive that day. After this day they were sent back in for servicing. No issue was found.

Lol... Boy, that's reassuring, isn't it?

As I said, they were examined by both me and someone who services their own regs who is familiar with their workings. The problem appeared resolved, but you can never know for sure. Even with you doing your fix, it might not have resolved the problem. And it was not five minutes later at depth, it was probably a good while after as they had been sitting pressurised waiting for the dive for I'd say 30mins at least. These things happen, it really was no big deal.

There's those words again.

Hey, your call - but I can assure you that the regs working/not working didn't happen by magic. Something's up with them, and I wouldn't use them again until I figured out what was wrong with them.

How did you "fix" the problem at depth? Was the screw loose?

I thought it was fully resolved. I was wrong. These things happen. It really was no big deal as it was fixed and then serviced.

Hmmmm... Those words again. What, exactly, IS a big deal, if doffing and donning isn't, if your regs leaking isn't, and people leaving their life support behind isn't?

What does this even mean? You are calling things like they are that you actually didn't understand when you read the first time and you are making patronising comments towards me about my attitude towards safety and suggesting I hang out with the wrong crowd and need further instruction. You have no idea about the crowd I hang out with nor of my abilities in the water so you are calling it like you are assuming it, in fact.

I'm basing my comments - and voicing my concerns - based on the things you've said and the actions that you've admitted to doing. Beer?

It doesn't appear so. You got multiple comments by me wrong, you assumed I was male, you mixed up names and in general appear to post before you think.

I assumed that you were male the last time you and I got into a discussion, too. Heck, I didn't even put that together until an hour ago. All I know is what you've told me - and what you've told me is that doffing and donning your rig underwater "is no big deal," and that it's sometimes appropriate to separate yourself from your life support. There's more, too... But I won't reiterate. My specific comments area couple of pages back.

All I know is what you've told me, and your comments were concerning to me.

I don't care if you do this stuff every second - it does not excuse you from not reading a post properly before attacking it. It makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, really.

Thanks for your input.

I'm not "attacking" your posts - I'm commenting on some of the things you said... They're inconsistent with the things I've learned in classes and are inconsistent with the things I've experienced.

Of course, not everything... Just the stuff I commented opon.

I guess this is a misunderstanding between what we said. I presumed you meant general OOG drills that I do. I do practice single file OOG drills but I do not practice them in real restrictions. But you made a comment that no one removes their gear to go through restrictions and this is not the case as some people do this.

Who? Got a name? Phone number? Email address? PM?

Who said anything about breath hold??? I have always been talking about ditch and don, which still has the regulator in the diver's mouth. That's one use for a 7ft hose - bug hunting. I have not discussed anything other than ditch and don, which does not involve the removal of one's regulator.

I would agree that ditching all of one's gear as well as a regulator, is an unsafe thing to do. But I have never been discussing this, just the removal of a BC.

Yeah, just like I said in my last post to you, Sas... There's a blurry line between what you're thinking is unsafe and what I'm thinking is unsafe. You're okay with removing your rig, just so long as you never drop the reg from your mouth. To me, I don't see a need to remove your rig in the first place - but overall, it sounds like you, too, agree that life support separation isn't a very good option - you just call yourself "separated" at a different point than I do.

...Which is why I said that it sounds like our opinions aren't really all that different, and I asked you why you were supporting a counter point of view.

I had to do it in OW course in the ocean. It is done in some technical training as I have a friend who is required to do it for trimix - not sure what depth. I would ditch and don my BC myself even without a buddy if it was necessary - say for solo diving.

My technical training has never encouraged us to doff and don our rigs - and has never mandated solo diving (there's just one agency that I know of that allows for a very specific certification that will allow it, but still doesn't consider it the best way of diving.

What technical agency requires a doff and don of a full rig in order to become trimix certified? Can you cite the requirement?

There is a big difference between saying ditch and don is no big deal, and saying that the following are no big deal: wearing 108lb of lead, drunk driving, or street racing.

Well, sure, YOU feel that way, but when I was told it was "no big deal" by the guy that I found dead two months later with 108 lbs of lead on, I'm sure he also believed it and felt that his situation was totally different from the others given in my example. And the drunk motorcyclist couldn't swim - and considered even casual, 30-ft diving to be a rediculous risk... Yet, I'm sure that he, too, believed that his drunk motorcycling was "no big deal" - he told me so.

Keep watching, Sas and John... Maybe you'll understand the connection between someone telling you, "It's no big deal," and catastrophic events.

My brother took out one of my boats a few months back. I was riding with him, and intently watching him do a fairly good job navigating my expensive asset. As we began to approach the dock to tie up, he was clearly going too fast, and I said, "Slow it down a little." It was, after all, MY boat. His response was, "I know what I'm doing." Of course, the boat slammed into the dock doing damage to both my dock and one of my boats.

When someone tells you "they know what they're doing," they clearly do not have a handle on the situation. If they "knew what they were doing," they wouldn't have to tell people that they "know what they're doing" - it would be obvious.

What's this got to do with this conversation? Well... I keep hearing, "It's no big deal," Sas. What's that mean, exactly, and why do you keep telling me that?

Using extreme irrelevant emotive examples to argue a point is a very poor way of making a point.

They're not extreme, and they're not irrelevant. You and John apparently aren't making the connection, that's all.

I think you have been criticising me, which is cool, but you are using misread posts to do so, and you also don't know me, so your criticism is not very well founded.

I'm not criticizing YOU, Sas... I'm telling you that I'm concerned over some of the things I am hearing said on this thread... Like, "It's okay to separate yourself from your life support," and, "Use a 7-foot hose so that you can leave your rig someplace that you're not," and, "Reg leaking at depth? No big deal..."

Yeah, these things are unsettling, and I am going to say so, because it feels like it's propagating misinformation and a lack of safety.

Basically, again you have read beyond my original intent. I never said leaving your gear entirely. I guess given you have not seen bug hunting like this you misunderstood how it is conducted with some people and just assumed I was talking about ditching your reg too. Perhaps you should stick to talking about things you have experienced rather than assuming about something.

The "bug hunting" that I have seen generally involves a "tickle stick" and a guy on a scuba unit... Or freediving. I have never once seen someone doff their rig and leave it somewhere where they're not in search of "bugs" - with or without a long hose and their second stage. That's why I said, "I have never seen that." Everywhere I've been, scuba divers leave their scuba units on their backs.

...Although I have heard the story a few hundred times over beers post-dive.

 

[Sas]

Hey, your call - but I can assure you that the regs working/not working didn't happen by magic. Something's up with them, and I wouldn't use them again until I figured out what was wrong with them.

Cool, nice for you. Well I assessed the situation, decided I was comfortable, and continued the dive. The problem never reoccured so I made the correct decision. If I had any doubt I would have turned off that post and called the dive.

How did you "fix" the problem at depth? Was the screw loose?

Allen key. Yes.

Hmmmm... Those words again. What, exactly, IS a big deal, if doffing and donning isn't, if your regs leaking isn't, and people leaving their life support behind isn't?

Lots of things. Not monitoring your air supply, diving beyond your limits, not following a dive plan. I have not said leaving behind your scuba gear is not a big deal. I just don't think ditch and don is a big deal. There are lots of things I don't think are a big deal. I don't think it is a big deal to modify dive plans underwater in some cases. For example, me and a buddy did a 5m pier dive the other day, and were really enjoying it so did an extra 20mins. No big deal. If we were at 40m, and decided to do an extra 20min, this is a big deal. Context is a huge part of what makes something a big deal.

I'm basing my comments - and voicing my concerns - based on the things you've said and the actions that you've admitted to doing. Beer?

No, you have been basing comments on posts that I didn't make, as illustrated by your constant assuming of what I am talking about, your exaggeration of the things that I have said (i.e. saying I say ALL first stage leaks are no big deal, that ALL ditch and dons are no big deal and so on), and your constant misreading of posts.

I assumed that you were male the last time you and I got into a discussion, too.

Yea, one of my pet hates. People assuming gender as male. It happens a lot. If someone talks about an instructor but does not say a gender, people reply as if the instructor is male. Etc.

Heck, I didn't even put that together until an hour ago. All I know is what you've told me - and what you've told me is that doffing and donning your rig underwater "is no big deal,"

It isn't in all cases. Sometimes it might be a big deal but the concept of ditch and don, should not be a big deal.

and that it's sometimes appropriate to separate yourself from your life support.

I do not see a BC as life support. And we have not adequately defined separation. So I do not think you can make a statement like this about what I have said.

I would not think it safe to remove one's entire scuba unit in most cases.

Thanks for your input.

You're welcome.

I'm not "attacking" your posts - I'm commenting on some of the things you said... They're inconsistent with the things I've learned in classes and are inconsistent with the things I've experienced.

Ok.

Who? Got a name? Phone number? Email address? PM?

Yes. And also I went to a sidemount talk where the person demonstrated how he can remove the tanks and push them ahead of himself in order to get through tight restrictions. He called it 'no mounting'. I have seen video footage too.

Yeah, just like I said in my last post to you, Sas... There's a blurry line between what you're thinking is unsafe and what I'm thinking is unsafe. You're okay with removing your rig, just so long as you never drop the reg from your mouth. To me, I don't see a need to remove your rig in the first place - but overall, it sounds like you, too, agree that life support separation isn't a very good option - you just call yourself "separated" at a different point than I do.

Pretty much. But you never bothered to clarify this with me before criticising now did you?

As someone who likes to solo dive, I see it as an important skill to have - ditch and don of my BC.

My technical training has never encouraged us to doff and don our rigs - and has never mandated solo diving (there's just one agency that I know of that allows for a very specific certification that will allow it, but still doesn't consider it the best way of diving.

What technical agency requires a doff and don of a full rig in order to become trimix certified? Can you cite the requirement?

I don't know if it is an instructor requirement or the agency requirement - i.e. it may just be something the instructor requires. And I am not sure if the course he is doing is IANTD or TDI, one of those two anyway.

Well, sure, YOU feel that way, but when I was told it was "no big deal" by the guy that I found dead two months later with 108 lbs of lead on, I'm sure he also believed it and felt that his situation was totally different from the others given in my example. And the drunk motorcyclist couldn't swim - and considered even casual, 30-ft diving to be a rediculous risk... Yet, I'm sure that he, too, believed that his drunk motorcycling was "no big deal" - he told me so.

Again, saying drunk driving is no big deal or wearing 108lb of lead is no big deal is ENTIRELY different to saying a skill, which is done in OW class no less, is no big deal. You realise that some things are actually no big deal?

Keep watching, Sas and John... Maybe you'll understand the connection between someone telling you, "It's no big deal," and catastrophic events.

Some times things are no big deal when people say they are no big deal. Other times when people say no big deal, they are a big deal. Your few COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT examples do not apply to anything discussed in my posts.

My brother took out one of my boats a few months back. I was riding with him, and intently watching him do a fairly good job navigating my expensive asset. As we began to approach the dock to tie up, he was clearly going too fast, and I said, "Slow it down a little." It was, after all, MY boat. His response was, "I know what I'm doing." Of course, the boat slammed into the dock doing damage to both my dock and one of my boats.

Again, this is nothing to do with what I have been saying. Can you please explain why then, ditch and don is such a big deal? So far you have been criticising me for saying so by using completely irrelevant examples without saying why you think it is such a big deal.

When someone tells you "they know what they're doing," they clearly do not have a handle on the situation.

And many times when they say that they do know what they are doing. If you're all for using irrelevant examples, my appendectomy doctor told me, when I was nervous about having my appendix out "it's no big deal, I know what I'm doing". And yea, he was right, it was no big deal and he did know what he was doing as I now lack an appendix and there were no other side effects.

When I have taken apart my mother's PC to fix things she has gotten worried at seeing all the bits of her computer around. I tell her 'it's no big deal, I know what I am doing' and yea, always managed to fix it I do know what I am doing and the fixes I have been making to her computer are no big deal.

If they "knew what they were doing," they wouldn't have to tell people that they "know what they're doing" - it would be obvious.

Not necessarily.

What's this got to do with this conversation? Well... I keep hearing, "It's no big deal," Sas. What's that mean, exactly, and why do you keep telling me that?

Because you keep saying it is a big deal. I am disagreeing with you. Please, go and explain why ditch and don of a BC is a big deal? I have explained why I do not think it is a big deal but you have not explained why it is a big deal?

I'm not criticizing YOU, Sas... I'm telling you that I'm concerned over some of the things I am hearing said on this thread... Like, "It's okay to separate yourself from your life support," and, "Use a 7-foot hose so that you can leave your rig someplace that you're not," and, "Reg leaking at depth? No big deal..."

Some times it is not ok to take your BC off. Some times it is not ok to fix a reg at depth and carry on a dive. Etc. Everything needs to be assessed within the context that it occurs. Your blanket statements are not helpful.

Yeah, these things are unsettling, and I am going to say so, because it feels like it's propagating misinformation and a lack of safety.

Fair enough. You're welcome to think that. I disagree so we can agree to disagree.

The "bug hunting" that I have seen generally involves a "tickle stick" and a guy on a scuba unit... Or freediving. I have never once seen someone doff their rig and leave it somewhere where they're not in search of "bugs" - with or without a long hose and their second stage. That's why I said, "I have never seen that." Everywhere I've been, scuba divers leave their scuba units on their backs.

Tickle sticks are banned locally.

...Although I have heard the story a few hundred times over beers post-dive.

Maybe out of a few hundred times, someone was not making stuff up.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Well if you read in a book that John C is liar, then maybe you should say that.

I didn't call John a liar - I said "a lot of things in Shadow Divers never happened." John didn't write the book. I don't know who did the lying... Or misunderstanding... Or falsification... Or misrepresentation. Why would I call John a liar? I don't know him, and I have never talked to him.

What I said was exactly what I meant... That "John doffing his rig and pushing it through a restriction in a deep wreck to gain access to a part of the U-869 that was already open elsewhere" never happened.

But stating that he is a liar without knowing for yourself is also "ballsy". As for you knowing that he didn't take his tank off because it was illogical and there were other options does not make John a liar.

Exactly. That's why I didn't call him a liar. I don't know the man, and so whether he's a liar or not, I wouldn't know. I have never talked to him.

What I do know, however, is that the story about John pushing his rig through, ahead of him, in Shadow Divers never happened.

i've seen both of the men talk and both are impressive to me. They both seem to be straight up people from what I can tell, but to be honest, it is disappointing to me if one (or both) are liars. Maybe I should just read the book.

Read both books. Read Shadow Divers first, 'cause it's a great story and a lot of fun to read. Then read Gary's book countering Shadow Divers, Deep Descent et al, and get the real story - which is entertaining to see what really happened... Or at least, Gary's version of it, which has many rings of truth to it.

Why do I get caught in line? Maybe I am careless, maybe I am clumsy, maybe because I am often carrying a reel with cave line towing a float and trying to spearfish? I've had a speared fish wrap me up in line, I've swam into line when frantically chasing an escaping lobster, I've swam into fishing line when swimming along a wreck in bad visibility, I've been caught in steel leader, I've been wrapped up in line many times. Removal and replacement of the scuba unit is an essential skill for all divers and especially solo divers.

Okay, man... Your call.

Why don't I get hung up more? I mean, I've been snagged maybe half a dozen times in thousands of dives, and never bad enough to have to make a cut, actually consider myself "tangled," or necessitate the need to doff my rig.

...And I cave, scooter, wreck, and am often called to handle entanglements. I dive real wrecks (which can be "a wreck" ), and also do all of the things that you're talking about.

Certainly there's got to be a reason...

Funny you should say thin suits and heavy steel tanks don't mix. Aren't you the guy who says a diver can swim a negative rig up?

Ummmm... To a degree. Personally, anything above 18 lbs starts to press me, but anything less than that shouldn't be a problem.

...But if you're referring to the thread specifically about that, I wasn't saying that you should swim a negative rig up - I was saying that if you dive a balanced rig in the first place, you won't have to ditch at depth, which can create a dangerous ascent.

The heaviest steel tank I use is a 149 cu-ft steel, 3500 psi with a pony bottle attached.

With a fully empty wing and a full tank, can you swim that rig up?

Incidentally, I did have to swim up a very similar rig once after a total BC failure. Not fun, but doable, for me at the time.

Okay, then why didn't you chime in and offer a little support there? I'd have been happy to hear someone tell people that you were able to swim up some -20 lbs or more...

Why are you diving 149 cuft steel tanks in a wetsuit? How negative are those things full?

Why not do a set of double 80's and a steel plate instead? Balanced, nearly neutral, and never so negative that it's leave you in a precarious postion... And oh yeah... Another 20 cuft of gas...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The book that I read on that wreck made it pretty clear that John said he went through the restriction with a single tank (as best I recall). When you say it didn't happen, I can only interpret your comments to mean that John C is a liar, how else can you intepret your statements (in your very simplistic, black and white world)?

I swam that rig up and had to do a deco stop after diving to around 165 feet with a BC that blew out on descent (the OP Spring broke). I was tired and about out of air when I reached the surface (I think the two large fish I had, helped me float a little on the 20 foot deco stop too). Next time, I probably would use a SMB with an opv as a secondary bouyancy source.

The large steel tanks are fine with a thick suit. I wore a 12 lb weight belt with a 5 mm suit and a shorty on Friday and seemed to be weighted fine. Double tanks are way too heavy and cumbersome.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Cool, nice for you. Well I assessed the situation, decided I was comfortable, and continued the dive. The problem never reoccured so I made the correct decision. If I had any doubt I would have turned off that post and called the dive.

Doubles... I'd have done the same thing, then... And just said so in my post above. Why didn't you say so when I said so?

Allen key. Yes.

How was that different than the fix topside?

I'm not asking as a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious.

Lots of things. Not monitoring your air supply, diving beyond your limits, not following a dive plan. I have not said leaving behind your scuba gear is not a big deal. I just don't think ditch and don is a big deal. There are lots of things I don't think are a big deal. I don't think it is a big deal to modify dive plans underwater in some cases. For example, me and a buddy

"My buddy and I." It's "My buddy and I," not "me and my buddy." Welcome to my pet peeve.

...did a 5m pier dive the other day, and were really enjoying it so did an extra 20mins. No big deal. If we were at 40m, and decided to do an extra 20min, this is a big deal. Context is a huge part of what makes something a big deal.

I sense fog rolling in. Why not just make the same rules for all situations? Plan the dive, dive the plan. No exceptions. Reg failure = thumb the dive. No exceptions. Buddy takes his rig off = thumb the dive. No exceptions.

Why not live life cut n dry?

No, you have been basing comments on posts that I didn't make, as illustrated by your constant assuming of what I am talking about, your exaggeration of the things that I have said (i.e. saying I say ALL first stage leaks are no big deal, that ALL ditch and dons are no big deal and so on), and your constant misreading of posts.

I'm not misreading your posts. I have quoted your posts, word for word, in every one of my responses. I have read them, responded to them, then read them again with my response multiple times.

The part where your intentions and my understandings are separating is in this "sometimes" attitude of yours. I say, "stay with your life support," and you say, well, it's okay if you take your life support off, just not if you spit out your reg." To me, that's too complicated and leaves entirely too much room for interpretation and error.

Just leave your rig on. Simple. Why complicate things?

Yea, one of my pet hates. People assuming gender as male. It happens a lot. If someone talks about an instructor but does not say a gender, people reply as if the instructor is male. Etc.

Sorry to have antagonized your pet hate.

There's nothing about any of your posts that tells a reader that you're female. Not that it matters to us... But if it matters to you ("pet hate") then you need to do something that tells us all that you're female. I've always found that a facial shot avatar helps people to understand better who you are. Optionally, a name that told us something about ourselves (even if jokingly - see GrumpyOldGuy for example) helps too.

You can't blame people for not knowing that you're a woman if you don't tell us - this sport is dominated by men - and not long ago, almost exclusively.

(Doffing an donning as being "not a big deal") isn't in all cases. Sometimes it might be a big deal but the concept of ditch and don, should not be a big deal.

Sounds like you and I agree some of the time, and disagree other times... I say, "just don't do it," and you say, "sometimes it's okay." We agree half the time. If you weren't changing your mind all the time, we'd agree all the time.

I do not see a BC as life support. And we have not adequately defined separation. So I do not think you can make a statement like this about what I have said.

Oh boy... Yeah, didn't we already have the "life support" conversation?

I see the whole scuba unit as life support, and don't separate it down into pieces. That's what works for me. Maybe therein lies why our opinions differ.

Fair enough - you don't see a BC as life support. I do. Our opinions differ. I don't have the energy to debate this one, too... Agree to not debate it?

I would not think it safe to remove one's entire scuba unit in most cases.

...And I would agree with you in most cases.

Yes. And also I went to a sidemount talk where the person demonstrated how he can remove the tanks and push them ahead of himself in order to get through tight restrictions. He called it 'no mounting'. I have seen video footage too.

Yes, and I, too, have seen that. I never considered that "separating yourself from your life support," though. I doubt you did, either.

That's not the same as a diver that doffs his rig and takes off, leaving his rig behind on a breath hold... Which was the "urban legend" that I referred to way back when at the beginning of this thread, where y'all jumped all over me and told me that you guys "see it all the time" and that I "must live a very secluded life" because I don't see it, too.

Pretty much. But you never bothered to clarify (the blurry line) with me before criticising now did you?

Why should I? Other divers that I've met and dived with or who work for me or whatever don't generally live their lives - or dive - by a set of blurry, excusable, inconsistent rules... Just you do. If you're going to have all kinds of exceptions to your rules, then maybe you should clarify your position first before telling the world that "It's no big deal to don and doff your rig." Maybe you should have said, "It's no big deal to don and doff your rig, so long as you never actually let go of it, never actually take the reg out of your mouth, never (insert excuse here), etc. Why is it MY responsibility to attempt to read you if you aren't communicating clearly?

I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." It's a simple and easy - and easily justifyable - rule. If you want to get technical, doffing your rig but not letting it go and not taking the reg out of your mouth ISN'T "separating yourself," so technically, we're in agreement... I said that originally in reference to the urban legend that a diver was diving down and came across a fully-rigged scuba unit, and a minute later, the diver returned to it from under a rock, on a breath hold... Remember? Urban legend. Probably never happened. After hearing someone say that "they see that all the time," I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." Now we're into discussing the exceptions to your rules and how "sometimes" it's okay, so long as we define "separation."

Why complicate things? Leave you rig on. NEVER separate yourself from your life support.

As someone who likes to solo dive, I see it as an important skill to have - ditch and don of my BC.

I'm not even going to touch that one.

I don't know if it is an instructor requirement or the agency requirement - i.e. it may just be something the instructor requires. And I am not sure if the course he is doing is IANTD or TDI, one of those two anyway.

I contest that neither IANTD nor TDI requires a ditch and don for a trimix certification. Guess how I know?

If you're gonna make the claim, ya better back it up.

Again, saying drunk driving is no big deal or wearing 108lb of lead is no big deal is ENTIRELY different to saying a skill, which is done in OW class no less, is no big deal. You realise that some things are actually no big deal?

Yes, but none of those things that include risk of life. I would consider any activity - drunk driving, motorcycling, skydiving, rappeling, mountain climbing, scuba diving... ANY activity that contains significant risk with the consequence of death to be "a big deal."

Some times things are no big deal when people say they are no big deal. Other times when people say no big deal, they are a big deal. Your few COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT examples do not apply to anything discussed in my posts.

I think you told me that last time, too.

I am amazed that you are taking the stance that any activity with significant risk and with a consequence of death can be considered "no big deal." If we can't agree that any activity with a consequence of death is, by default, A BIG DEAL, then there is zero grounds for agreement between the two of us on any subject.

Again, this is nothing to do with what I have been saying. Can you please explain why then, ditch and don is such a big deal? So far you have been criticising me for saying so by using completely irrelevant examples without saying why you think it is such a big deal.

It is "such a big deal" because if you leave your life support, you leave the possibility that you may not get back to it in time to take a breath. That is, your life support is no longer in your control. Why would anyone take this risk? In 23 years of diving, I have never once seen a situation that had a reward for taking this risk.

And many times when they say that they do know what they are doing. If you're all for using irrelevant examples, my appendectomy doctor told me, when I was nervous about having my appendix out "it's no big deal, I know what I'm doing". And yea, he was right, it was no big deal and he did know what he was doing as I now lack an appendix and there were no other side effects.

Lol... Frankly, I'd be worried about a doctor that told me that seriously. If he was joking, fine... But if he was serious - and I didn't already know that he knew what he was doing - then I'd be finding another doctor.

Clearly, he was kidding with you - levity to brighten the situation. Clearly, he DID know what he was doing, and clearly, you ALREADY KNEW that he knew what he was doing. When someone says, "I know what I'm doing," but that's not already obvious, then plainly, they DON"T know what they're doing.

When I have taken apart my mother's PC to fix things she has gotten worried at seeing all the bits of her computer around. I tell her 'it's no big deal, I know what I am doing' and yea, always managed to fix it. I do know what I am doing and the fixes I have been making to her computer are no big deal.

Well, sounds like you've gotten lucky. Any training with regards to computers? Any experience? If not, then clearly, you've been very lucky so far.

...In a situation where the consequence was death, I don't think I'd "wing it" and tell someone, "I know what I'm doing. It's no big deal."

Yeah, it IS a "big deal" if the consequence to doing something wrong is death.

Not necessarily.

Another "exception to the rule?" How do you live that way?

Because you keep saying it is a big deal. I am disagreeing with you. Please, go and explain why ditch and don of a BC is a big deal? I have explained why I do not think it is a big deal but you have not explained why it is a big deal?

See above.

Some times it is not ok to take your BC off. Some times it is not ok to fix a reg at depth and carry on a dive. Etc. Everything needs to be assessed within the context that it occurs. Your blanket statements are not helpful.

...But they are. They come with experience.

Here's another rule: Get out of the water as many times as I get in. Always start with a full tank. Fins on feet, mask on face. Reg in mouth. Why complicate things and "(assess everything) within the context that it occurs?" Why not just say about diving - about your life - that "these are the rules, and in general, they'll keep me out of the poo?"

It occurs to me that perhaps our philosophies differ because of our genders. I'm not making excuses, but a sterotype exists that women view men as oversimplified, and that men view women as rediculously complex. Perhaps our philosophies differ in the same way?

I don't have any other logical explanation for it.

Fair enough. You're welcome to think that. I disagree so we can agree to disagree.

Heh. Cool.

Tickle sticks are banned locally.

I have no idea if they're banned locally or not - like you, I don't hunt, fish, or otherwise kill... And I certainly don't eat seafood... But I do see plenty of bug hunters locally and in my travels, and most of them have tickle sticks.

Those that don't usually have something that's NOT a tickle stick, but can be used as a tickle stick.

...And even those guys - careless and reckless as they are - don't doff their gear and come back for it later.

Maybe out of a few hundred times, someone was not making stuff up.

Yeah, and maybe Microsoft really is going to pay you a billion dollars to forward that email.

You know, in 23 years of diving, I'd have seen it. At least once.

 

[Deep South Divers]

The book that I read on that wreck made it pretty clear that John said he went through the restriction with a single tank (as best I recall). When you say it didn't happen, I can only interpret your comments to mean that John C is a liar, how else can you intepret your statements (in your very simplistic, black and white world)?

Man, you're really trying hard to put words into my mouth, aren't you?

What if the book was incorrect? John was not the author.

I have no idea who was lying, or misunderstood, or whatever... I can tell you that it's my OPINION that John lied about it, or at least didn't correct the untruth... But that's just an opinion.

All I can tell you is that it didn't happen the way it was told in the book.

I swam that rig up and had to do a deco stop after diving to around 165 feet with a BC that blew out on descent (the OP Spring broke). I was tired and about out of air when I reached the surface (I think the two large fish I had, helped me float a little on the 20 foot deco stop too). Next time, I probably would use a SMB with an opv as a secondary bouyancy source.

Why would you need to do that?

If your OPV spring broke, your rig would still work just fine - including your BC. You'd just have to do most of your dive vertically (a pain, but done just fine) to ensure that you weren't dumping gas out of your OPV.

If you were weighted properly, then at the end of your dive, at a 15-foot stop, you should have been completely neutral with no gas in your BC at all... So the fact that you had a disfunctional OPV shouldn't have even come into play.

Why would any of this necessitate an SMB? Any redundant bouyancy source?

Why do you guys keep making up situations that don't really exist and solutions for problems that don't really exist? Why do you guys keep forgoing solid, age-old answers for problems that really do exist for phantom issues?

The large steel tanks are fine with a thick suit.

...Not if you're not neutral at the end of your dive at 15' and think that you need an SMB or redundant bouyancy source to combat a broken spring on a bottom dump.

I wore a 12 lb weight belt with a 5 mm suit and a shorty on Friday and seemed to be weighted fine. Double tanks are way too heavy and cumbersome.

*sigh* You think that double 80's "are way too heavy and cumbersome" as compared to a 149 cuft steel tank with a pony?

This isn't even making sense any more.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The opv spring broke in my pull dump on the inflator. Zero bouyancy unless I was upside down and it is hard to swim up when you are upside down,

On the dive when the spring broke i was wearing zero lead and diving a big steel tank with no wetsuit. I WAS overweighted due to the tank. If it happens again, I suppose I will use my smb to ascend rather than kicking so hard to get up.

 

[Sas]

Doubles... I'd have done the same thing, then... And just said so in my post above. Why didn't you say so when I said so?

You didn't ask.

How was that different than the fix topside?

It was not any different.

I'm not asking as a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious.

I just have no idea. The servicing found nothing. As they were not my regs I spoke to the owner and as she was away I dropped them to her usual reg technican. She told me later it ended up being a standard service. As far as I know, she has not had an issue with them since.

I sense fog rolling in. Why not just make the same rules for all situations?

I do not see inflexibility as a good thing to have when diving. Not every situation is the same.

Plan the dive, dive the plan. No exceptions.

Sure, but some times our plan is not concrete but we have set boundaries on the variations we can make to plans. Perhaps this is the same thing as you are saying though.

Reg failure = thumb the dive. No exceptions. Buddy takes his rig off = thumb the dive. No exceptions.

My training has discussed fixable and non fixable issues with various bits of equipment, with the stress on not doing something you are uncomfortable with. So I do not have set rules such as this. And I do not think a leak is the same as a failure (depends how big, etc) and assess each in the context in which it happens.

Why not live life cut n dry?

Because life is not cut n dry.

I'm not misreading your posts. I have quoted your posts, word for word, in every one of my responses. I have read them, responded to them, then read them again with my response multiple times.

Curious. Why do you say that I say things that I have not said then?

The part where your intentions and my understandings are separating is in this "sometimes" attitude of yours. I say, "stay with your life support," and you say, well, it's okay if you take your life support off, just not if you spit out your reg." To me, that's too complicated and leaves entirely too much room for interpretation and error.

Fair enough. I don't agree so we can leave it there.

Just leave your rig on. Simple. Why complicate things?

Because I do not find it complicated to ditch and don my BC.

Sorry to have antagonized your pet hate.

There's nothing about any of your posts that tells a reader that you're female.

And nothing to indicate I am a man, so why I assume I am one?

Not that it matters to us... But if it matters to you ("pet hate") then you need to do something that tells us all that you're female.

It's in my profile.

I've always found that a facial shot avatar helps people to understand better who you are. Optionally, a name that told us something about ourselves (even if jokingly - see GrumpyOldGuy for example) helps too.

You can't blame people for not knowing that you're a woman if you don't tell us - this sport is dominated by men - and not long ago, almost exclusively.

Sure. Instead you can look at people's profiles before using gendered language (which is what I do) or use gender neutral language.

It's no big deal. It just tells me a lot about someone when they assume I am male.

Sounds like you and I agree some of the time, and disagree other times...

That pretty much applies to everyone I know.

I say, "just don't do it," and you say, "sometimes it's okay." We agree half the time. If you weren't changing your mind all the time, we'd agree all the time.

Well, then I'd agree with you all of the time, but then we'd both be wrong.

Oh boy... Yeah, didn't we already have the "life support" conversation?

Yes.

I see the whole scuba unit as life support, and don't separate it down into pieces. That's what works for me. Maybe therein lies why our opinions differ.

They do but you already know my opinion.

Fair enough - you don't see a BC as life support.

No, because sometimes I do not even wear a BC. Depends on the circumstances.

I do. Our opinions differ. I don't have the energy to debate this one, too... Agree to not debate it?

Sure. We've been there, done that already.

Yes, and I, too, have seen that. I never considered that "separating yourself from your life support," though. I doubt you did, either.

Sure. But this whole discussion started from a comment from InTheDrink about BC removal not entire scuba unit removal so I am unsure why you have gone on and on about entire scuba unit removal in response.

That's not the same as a diver that doffs his rig and takes off, leaving his rig behind on a breath hold... Which was the "urban legend" that I referred to way back when at the beginning of this thread, where y'all jumped all over me and told me that you guys "see it all the time" and that I "must live a very secluded life" because I don't see it, too.

I don't know why you brought it up then as no one was asking about entire scuba unit removal. I am sure it has happened though.

Why should I? Other divers that I've met and dived with or who work for me or whatever don't generally live their lives - or dive - by a set of blurry, excusable, inconsistent rules... Just you do. If you're going to have all kinds of exceptions to your rules, then maybe you should clarify your position first before telling the world that "It's no big deal to don and doff your rig." Maybe you should have said, "It's no big deal to don and doff your rig, so long as you never actually let go of it, never actually take the reg out of your mouth, never (insert excuse here), etc. Why is it MY responsibility to attempt to read you if you aren't communicating clearly?

Because we were talking specifically about BC ditch and don. Not all the rest of what you have been going on about. So I felt no need to clarify. You are the one who muddied the waters with breath holding and so forth. Perhaps you should have been the one to be upfront about it.

I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." It's a simple and easy - and easily justifyable - rule. If you want to get technical, doffing your rig but not letting it go and not taking the reg out of your mouth ISN'T "separating yourself," so technically, we're in agreement...

And this is precisely why I have been arguing the point. As that is what I have been talking about.

I said that originally in reference to the urban legend that a diver was diving down and came across a fully-rigged scuba unit, and a minute later, the diver returned to it from under a rock, on a breath hold... Remember? Urban legend. Probably never happened. After hearing someone say that "they see that all the time," I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." Now we're into discussing the exceptions to your rules and how "sometimes" it's okay, so long as we define "separation."

Again, you were the one who brought that up, not anyone else.

Why complicate things? Leave you rig on. NEVER separate yourself from your life support.

I would never say never with anything to do with diving. If my rig got so hopelessly tangled underwater that after ditching and donning my BC I could not free it well then I am going to let it go and surface. There are always exceptions and to be inflexible is not a good thing, in my opinion.

I contest that neither IANTD nor TDI requires a ditch and don for a trimix certification. Guess how I know?

Again with the misreading! I said I didn't know if it was an AGENCY or the INSTRUCTOR's requirement. I have done courses where I have had to do things beyond the agency standards because the instructor prefers to do extra things. Perhaps in this case is the same. For goodness sake, read my posts properly. This is yet another example of you misreading my post! You even quoted exactly what I said, yet you did not read it properly.

Yes, but none of those things that include risk of life. I would consider any activity - drunk driving, motorcycling, skydiving, rappeling, mountain climbing, scuba diving... ANY activity that contains significant risk with the consequence of death to be "a big deal."

Ok.

I am amazed that you are taking the stance that any activity with significant risk and with a consequence of death can be considered "no big deal." If we can't agree that any activity with a consequence of death is, by default, A BIG DEAL, then there is zero grounds for agreement between the two of us on any subject.

Again with putting words in my mouth. I never said scuba diving was no big deal. I said that an aspect of it, ditch and don, was no big deal. Again, please read my posts and respond to what I have said, not what you think I have said.

It is "such a big deal" because if you leave your life support, you leave the possibility that you may not get back to it in time to take a breath. That is, your life support is no longer in your control. Why would anyone take this risk? In 23 years of diving, I have never once seen a situation that had a reward for taking this risk.

Ok. I have never argued that it is no big deal for someone to leave behind their scuba equipment.

Lol... Frankly, I'd be worried about a doctor that told me that seriously. If he was joking, fine... But if he was serious - and I didn't already know that he knew what he was doing - then I'd be finding another doctor.

Ok then.

Clearly, he was kidding with you - levity to brighten the situation. Clearly, he DID know what he was doing, and clearly, you ALREADY KNEW that he knew what he was doing. When someone says, "I know what I'm doing," but that's not already obvious, then plainly, they DON"T know what they're doing.

Actually he didn't look like he knew what he was doing and I was nervous. He looked about 80 years old, a bit shaky and an overwhelming tobacco smell about him. But I went public system so he was free. He did an excellent job, in the end. I guess with surgeons you want someone who has been around for a while.

Well, sounds like you've gotten lucky. Any training with regards to computers? Any experience? If not, then clearly, you've been very lucky so far.

No official training. But they are simple devices to add and remove hardware from.

...In a situation where the consequence was death, I don't think I'd "wing it" and tell someone, "I know what I'm doing. It's no big deal."

I have not been talking about situations where the consequence is going to be death.

Yeah, it IS a "big deal" if the consequence to doing something wrong is death.

Yep agreed, duh.

Another "exception to the rule?" How do you live that way?

Quite enjoyably, thanks for asking.

Here's another rule: Get out of the water as many times as I get in. Always start with a full tank.

Ahh see I don't always start with a full tank. The other day I had 140 bar left over from a dive last week so I jumped under a 5m pier to use up the rest of it. Didn't want to waste over half a tank!

Fins on feet, mask on face. Reg in mouth. Why complicate things and "(assess everything) within the context that it occurs?" Why not just say about diving - about your life - that "these are the rules, and in general, they'll keep me out of the poo?"

Because what you are telling me to do, goes against all my dive training, and all of the experience I have accumulated so far. And you are a complete stranger so I don't see why I would listen to you over instructors and friends who combined have vastly more experience than you.

It occurs to me that perhaps our philosophies differ because of our genders. I'm not making excuses, but a sterotype exists that women view men as oversimplified, and that men view women as rediculously complex. Perhaps our philosophies differ in the same way?

I highly doubt it. If you knew me you would know that very few female stereotypes can be applied to me.

I don't have any other logical explanation for it.

We are two different people who have two different opinions about something? And nothing more than that? It happens.

I have no idea if they're banned locally or not - like you, I don't hunt, fish, or otherwise kill... And I certainly don't eat seafood... But I do see plenty of bug hunters locally and in my travels, and most of them have tickle sticks.

I am sure some people use them here. But it is not allowed. No one I have dived with has used one.

...And even those guys - careless and reckless as they are - don't doff their gear and come back for it later.

I think a tickle stick would make them easier to catch so they might not need to.

Yeah, and maybe Microsoft really is going to pay you a billion dollars to forward that email.

You know, in 23 years of diving, I'd have seen it. At least once.

n=1 where n is you. Not a valid statistical sample size. Neither are the thousands of dives you have done when you think about how many dives have ever been done

 

[Deep South Divers]

The opv spring broke in my pull dump on the inflator. Zero bouyancy unless I was upside down and it is hard to swim up when you are upside down,

You wouldn't have had to swim upside-down... Horizontal would have been just fine. A little "butt up" would have been even better.

On the dive when the spring broke i was wearing zero lead and diving a big steel tank with no wetsuit. I WAS overweighted due to the tank. If it happens again, I suppose I will use my smb to ascend rather than kicking so hard to get up.

Why not just dive correctly weighted in the first place and not worry about this any more?