Ditching the poodle jacket

[greylion]

Ok, let's chill for 5.


Oxycheq Mach V Wing
Freedom plate
Oxycheq Deluxe Adjustable Harness System
Oxycheq Crotch Strap
Oxycheq Medium Weight Pocket
Oxycheq X-Pocket
2 x Oxycheq Cam Strap with SS Buckle

I'm pretty excited. Anything anyone would add to this list or that I've forgotten? Feedback I've had is that an STA really isn't required for the Freedom plate.

Thanks,
J

Adjustable harness with the freedom plate? Cool, let me know how that worked out? That looks like a great package.

 

[Sas]

#2. I think you should apologise to Sas and retract your last post. I know her, she does not lie, she is extremely safe, adheres to protocols and drawing into question her honesty about fixing an issue underwater that appeared to be fixed over water is quite bizarre. I think you're the exception and not the rule if every fix you've ever applied (in whatever situation) has worked first time and has been in a provable position first time. Various modes of failure (serious or not) manifest at different pressures so it is impossible to be completely certain that a fix has worked until testing it. That's why in my work we have Dev, Test, UAT and Prod environments - establishing that something definitely works in real life generally only gets truly proved once it's in a real-life setting. And even then it's context dependent. But I'm digressing - main thing is you should retract your post cos Sas does not lie and I, and I'm sure others on this board, would resent your suggestion otherwise. And don't for a second think that weasle words like saying you weren't calling here a liar, just questioning whether she was telling the truth, will hide your implication from anyone reading.

Thanks

SeaJay mentioned the very reason why I am not giving names in my posts - he wants to call or email. The thought that I would hand out instructor names so some random person on the internet can call them and drag them into a discussion is utterly ridiculous. I simply do not care if he believes me or not. I care if you and burna believe me as you guys are buddies.

I'm not dignifying the rest of his post with a response and he is now on ignore.

I still cannot fathom why I would make up a story about an equipment problem, or what I have been told my friend has to do for trimix!

 

[Deep South Divers]

Ok, let's chill for 5.

(pause)

K.

Ok #1 - when I said doff/don I was talking about the practice as taught in OW. This does not include any breath holding or being away from your rig. It's simply not having the BC/harness attached to you. Reg is always in your mouth. Just so we're all clear what I, and most others chipping in, have been talking about. No-one, unless I'm very much misreading the posts is talking about leaving your kit, holding breath and swimming off somewhere. If I somehow gave you that impression my apologies but that was never the point that I and I think others have been discussing.

No worries. Sounds like we're in agreement, then.

I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." That's what kicked off the debate, with the preceeding story about the urban legend that a diver came across a fully-rigged scuba unit laying on the seabed.

If there's been a misunderstanding, then I apologize - but I still contend that a diver should never separate themselves from their life support.

Personally, I can't think of a reason to doff and redon a rig underwater, either, except for class... But that's just my opinion. Others may feel differently. I have never once found a reason for it... And don't believe it should be a reason why or why not to consider the purchase of a certain bit of gear.

For what it's worth, I don't know of any BC or backplate and wing that can't be doffed and donned. And if the diver's properly weighted, it shouldn't be an issue at all. I still think it's a useless skill... Again, just an opinion.

#2. I think you should apologise to Sas and retract your last post. I know her, she does not lie,

I never accused her of lying. She told me that I accused her of lying. What is with the "lying" thing? I've never once called anyone here a liar... Although I was accused of it myself.

...And when I was accused of it, *I* didn't go around expecting an apology. So what if someone on the internet insults you or calls you names? Check out my signature line for a response to that.

she is extremely safe, adheres to protocols and drawing into question her honesty about fixing an issue underwater that appeared to be fixed over water is quite bizarre.

Well, then, perhaps the issue is in her presentation - or perhaps she didn't tell me everything. I'm just communicating that there's some issues with what she told me. I don't know if she's a "liar" or not - frankly, it never occurred to me to consider that until she mentioned it.

I think you're the exception and not the rule if every fix you've ever applied (in whatever situation) has worked first time and has been in a provable position first time.

I probably AM the exception and not the rule... I do this professionally. Most people don't. A significant portion of my job is disentanglements. For most people, this isn't true. I dive virtually ever work day - again, an unusual situation.

...But that doesn't change the fact that I have never once seen the urban legend manifest itself in reality, yet I hear the story often. It also doesn't change the fact that I have never once seen anyone need to doff and don their gear at depth, and have never needed to myself.

If you're convinced it's a situation that occurs commonly enough to require training for it, then feel free to take whatever measures you feel necessary to keep you safe during the issue. I contend that there are more common issues that should be a diver's training focus, but the choice is yours.

Various modes of failure (serious or not) manifest at different pressures so it is impossible to be completely certain that a fix has worked until testing it. That's why in my work we have Dev, Test, UAT and Prod environments - establishing that something definitely works in real life generally only gets truly proved once it's in a real-life setting. And even then it's context dependent. But I'm digressing - main thing is you should retract your post cos Sas does not lie and I, and I'm sure others on this board, would resent your suggestion otherwise.

John, I never even suggested it. She was the one that brought up the word, "Lie." I was assuming that I was missing large parts of the story, so I asked questions to try to fill in the blanks.

...But with you and her jumping to the conclusion that she was lying, I must admit that it's a curious point to consider. Only she knows what the truth is - perhaps it's exactly as she said. I don't know.

And don't for a second think that weasle words like saying you weren't calling here a liar, just questioning whether she was telling the truth, will hide your implication from anyone reading.

There's no "hiding" - where in my post did I call her a "liar?" Where did I even suggest that she wasn't telling the truth?

4. You see life as black and white. And call it so.

I'm flattered, but no, I see shades of gray, too... I just call them "shades of gray" and not "sometimes black, and sometimes white." I explained that. DON'T YOU READ MY POSTS?

I can lots of positives from this, however it's not an accurate reflection of reality.

You calling me a "liar?"

Silly, isn't it?

I'm happy with reality, which is generally grey and nearly always context dependent.

Great. Call it gray, then, or black, or white, or dark gray... Don't call it "sometimes white and sometimes black."

At least, that's what works for me. Your opinion may be different.

In diving there are many times that decided protocol must be observed and absolutely (e.g. someone thumbing the dive). I'm happy with certain absolutes and happy with certain grey areas. You are too, but you're just being selective to make you argument.

I don't see it that way, but whatever you want to believe - however you want to make your point. Fine.

5. Ok, just once and for all, tell us why you think that doffing your rig is so dangerous. Reg still in mouth of course, let's not get confused again. What is so dangerous about this?

I don't consider that "separating yourself from your life support equipment," so I don't consider that a safety issue.

That said, I don't believe it's ever necessary. I feel the same way about the ability to remove and replace your tank from your BC at depth. Probably not life-threatening, but why do it?

I'm pretty exasperated. You don't argue 'straight'. Whether you realise it or not, you do bend people's words, misquote or apparently either don't read or deliberately misconstrue. I've been trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt but I'm struggling.

I argue very straight... The reason why it's not running parallel to your argument is because YOU aren't arguing straight. That's the reason why you're so exasperated.

I've never called anyone a "liar." You and Sas "bend my words, misquote or apparently don't read or deliberately misconstrue." I have never said anything other than "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." You and Sas "bend my words, misquote or apparently don't read or deliberately misconstrue." I have never once seen a real-life reenactment of the "lone scuba unit" urban legend, and I have never once needed to doff my rig to get out of an entanglement. You and Sas "bend my words, misquote or apparently don't read of deliberately misconstrue." You two must be exhausted!

And the other thing - when I titled my thread 'ditching the poodle jacket' my intention was to discuss BP/W choices - I didn't realise the whole thing would ironically or poetically turn into a thread about ditching/doffing/donning your BC.

Alright, call it and our debate will end. As far as I'm concerned, this is your "dive" - if you don't want this subject discussed any longer, I'll concede. Your thread, you're in control, John.

Anyhow I ordered. I couldn't wait any longer. For those with any interest here's what I bought:

Oxycheq Mach V Wing
Freedom plate
Oxycheq Deluxe Adjustable Harness System
Oxycheq Crotch Strap
Oxycheq Medium Weight Pocket
Oxycheq X-Pocket
2 x Oxycheq Cam Strap with SS Buckle

I'm pretty excited. Anything anyone would add to this list or that I've forgotten? Feedback I've had is that an STA really isn't required for the Freedom plate.

Thanks,
J

Nope. Looks complete to me.

The Mach V wing looks impressively rugged. Don't have any experience with that wing in particular, but I'm not a fan of Oxycheq's hose, "flap" and power inflator. Wouldn't have been my first choice, but probably my #2 or #3. I think you'll be very happy with it.

I'm not going to comment on the Freedom Plate until I've got more experience with it and it's rigged properly. I would have chosen something that I know works and works well and has the option of various accessories and could be used for both doubles and singles - not just singles. But it may have clear advantages as a singles rig that I'm not aware of yet - it appears that the possibility is there, so I need to dive the plate more to find out for sure before I am able to donate a valid opinion.

The adjustable harness system is something that works really well on rental rigs - because they can be adjusted "on the fly" and quickly and easily. I think that you'd have enjoyed a simpler system that keeps it's adjustments better once you've set them... Like a Hogarthian harness... But that's just an opinion. I don't think that having a "deluxe" harness is going to hurt you - and you can always swap out later if you find yourself looking for a simpler system.

I've never used the Oxycheq crotch strap, weight pocket, or X-pocket, so I am not qualified to have an opinion on them. I have heard good things about the Oxycheq crotch strap, and seen one in person - looks to be a pretty nice piece of kit. Never encountered anyone who owns the weight pocket or X-pocket.

Overall, I think you'll be exceedingly happy with your new rig, and I think you made a great choice in a variety of ways.

 

[InTheDrink]

Adjustable harness with the freedom plate? Cool, let me know how that worked out? That looks like a great package.

Eeesh - reckon this will be a problem? I can always adjust my order if necessary, it's not going to be shipped for a few days.

Thanks (and please, really, if you can think of reason why this combo mightn't work I'd prefer to find out now and re-order just basic hog webbing).

J

 

[Deep South Divers]

Thanks

SeaJay mentioned the very reason why I am not giving names in my posts - he wants to call or email.

Of course I do. I would be very interested in a logical explanation for why a course normally concerned exclusively with breathing gasses would require any diving at all... Much less a doff and don underwater.

What you said was a "trimix certification." My trimix certifications were earned in my shop, while mixing gasses. That is, they taught me to mix trimix. In that regard, they were similar to my "nitrox" courses - some book work, a test, and some hands-on mixing and playing with the O2 analyzer. A "nitrox" course was a prerequesite, and in a similar fashion, did not require any diving to pass the course.

If your friend's "trimix certification" was that different than mine, then perhaps I was missing something in my classes.

The thought that I would hand out instructor names so some random person on the internet can call them and drag them into a discussion is utterly ridiculous. I simply do not care if he believes me or not. I care if you and burna believe me as you guys are buddies.

Fair enough. When asked a simple question, you refused a logical answer... Or witheld the information. That's fine. Obviously, this does not concrete your believability.

...Which isn't to say that you're lying, or that you're not - only that you refuse to provide proof that you are truthful. That's all I know.

I'm not dignifying the rest of his post with a response and he is now on ignore.

Yay! My bet is that you won't be able to resist responding to this post... But I hope you do.

I still cannot fathom why I would make up a story about an equipment problem, or what I have been told my friend has to do for trimix!

Who said you were making it up? All I know is that you refused to provide proof that you are truthful.

...But I am curious why a course that typically requires no diving at all found a student doffing and donning their gear at depth. Could it be that your buddy wasn't being truthful to you? Could it be that you are misinformed about the label of the course? Could it be that I was shortchanged on my trimix courses? I don't know the answer... But I never accused you of lying.

...But you might want to look into why you think everyone thinks you're lying. Seems like there might be some deeper issues there.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[InTheDrink]

I've never used the Oxycheq crotch strap, weight pocket, or X-pocket, so I am not qualified to have an opinion on them. I have heard good things about the Oxycheq crotch strap, and seen one in person - looks to be a pretty nice piece of kit. Never encountered anyone who owns the weight pocket or X-pocket.

Overall, I think you'll be exceedingly happy with your new rig, and I think you made a great choice in a variety of ways.

Ok so let's ditch the doff and don conversation. Going nowhere really. Think we're all tired of it, would prefer to set you straight over a beer. Would be quicker and less painful for the poor observers to this thread. And I've fixed people worse than you

The Oxycheq deluxe harness doesn't look that deluxe (Oxycheq Deluxe Adjustable Harness System) but I am a little anxious about that choice now and hope there's someone out there that's fitted it with with a freedom plate. Re the other oxycheq stuff - I managed to avoid impulse purchasing for more than 48 hours. That's a new record for me so I'm pretty happy with that. And I even bought things from more than one shop.

Maybe I should revise my order and just get a hog harness. Hmmm. I thought the adjustable part would be useful but on thinking about it, quite possibly not.

This is the regret part that I mentioned somewhere near post #3.

Am sure it'll all be fine. It's all either black or stainless steel so it's technically impossible to go wrong

 

[Deep South Divers]

Eeesh - reckon this will be a problem? I can always adjust my order if necessary, it's not going to be shipped for a few days.

Thanks (and please, really, if you can think of reason why this combo mightn't work I'd prefer to find out now and re-order just basic hog webbing).

J

Dunno... But I can tell you that if you're not sure, Eric has made himself available for direct questions, and that that's a rarity.

Eric, can this harness be used with a Freedom Plate?

 

[greylion]

Eeesh - reckon this will be a problem? I can always adjust my order if necessary, it's not going to be shipped for a few days.

Thanks (and please, really, if you can think of reason why this combo mightn't work I'd prefer to find out now and re-order just basic hog webbing).

J

No, I don't see it as a problem. I just haven't read of anyone setting it up like that, but some may have? Looking at the link you provided it looks like it should work?

Eric?

 

[Deep South Divers]

Ok so let's ditch the doff and don conversation.

Lol.. Yeah.

Going nowhere really. Think we're all tired of it, would prefer to set you straight over a beer.

Hahahahaaa... You know, I'd like that. If you're buying, you're more than welcome to "set me straight" anytime you like.

I'll bring a case of Charleston Pale Ale and a case of Carolina Blonde (local brews) and you bring a local Aussie brew and we'll battle it out and solve the world's problems.

Would be quicker and less painful for the poor observers to this thread. And I've fixed people worse than you

LOL! Aw, heck, you Aussies see the world upside-down anyway.

For what it's worth, I do a lot of business on the Gold Coast. Meet you there sometime?

The Oxycheq deluxe harness doesn't look that deluxe (Oxycheq Deluxe Adjustable Harness System) but I am a little anxious about that choice now and hope there's someone out there that's fitted it with with a freedom plate. Re the other oxycheq stuff - I managed to avoid impulse purchasing for more than 48 hours. That's a new record for me so I'm pretty happy with that. And I even bought things from more than one shop.

Hahahahaaaaaa... I know the feeling well, having it burn inside of you. Then you start thinking, "If I'd purchased it when I was thinking about it, it'd be here already..." It can be agony.

When I tried to rig the plate (and rerig it) I apparently botched it pretty badly, and came to the conclusion that it was just a really poor design - not a fair assessment at all. Thus, I am possibly the worst person to give advice on how to rig a Freedom Plate.

Eric's gotta chime in on this one - certainly he'd be able to give you the most experienced and educated answer.

Maybe I should revise my order and just get a hog harness. Hmmm. I thought the adjustable part would be useful but on thinking about it, quite possibly not.

My bet (just a hunch) is that Eric will tell you hogarthian harness would work best with the plate... But I don't know that for sure.

I like hogarthian harnesses because they're permenantly and infinitely adjusted, are completely flat (and therefore totally streamlined) and are very easily replaced for like $20 in the event that they get frayed, worn, cut, discolored, or in my case - saturated with diesel fuel (happens a lot).

...Not to bring up a sore subject, but I think that if you were going to doff and don underwater, you'd find the hog harness to be simpler and easier to get in and out of. Surface logic says that's not true, but it is - in the same way that it's easier and quicker to don a T-shirt than it is to don a buttondown shirt.

This is the regret part that I mentioned somewhere near post #3.

Ah, yeah... I remember that.

Why not purchase a hogarthian harness as well, and make the decision once you get it all in?

All a hogarthian harness is is:

12' - 15' of 2" webbing
3 "standard gauge" D rings
3 regular stainless steel triglides
2 serrated stainless steel triglides
1 stainless steel belt buckle

This is available at Webbing - Dive Gear Express . The buckles, D-rings and triglides (they call them "belt glides") are listed at the bottom.

The total might cost $30 or so.

I'd avoid buying the "Hogarthian Harness" on the site, as it comes with some unnecessary junk and a crotch strap, which you've already purchased.

Am sure it'll all be fine. It's all either black or stainless steel so it's technically impossible to go wrong

You'll be fine. Have a beer.

 

[InTheDrink]

Lol.. Yeah.



Hahahahaaa... You know, I'd like that. If you're buying, you're more than welcome to "set me straight" anytime you like.

I'll bring a case of Charleston Pale Ale and a case of Carolina Blonde (local brews) and you bring a local Aussie brew and we'll battle it out and solve the world's problems.

LOL! Aw, heck, you Aussies see the world upside-down anyway.

For what it's worth, I do a lot of business on the Gold Coast. Meet you there sometime?

You're not helping the criticism about you not paying attention to detail - I live in the UK. Check my avatar, nevermind my profile!

But I do go down under occasionally but only to Melbourne & Sydney. Some pretty great diving in Melbourne.

Re hog harness and getting both - might just do that but think will wait til order arrives unless anyone here has direct experience of them not working together (freedom plate and oxycheq comfort harness).

J