Ditching the poodle jacket

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You know, after looking at the photo of the Oxycheq comfort harness I'm starting to have doubts that it will work that well with a Freedom Plate. It looks like the webbing the way it's attached to the Oxy plate has a certain "fixed" amount of webbing between shoulder padding to shoulder padding. I don't doubt that it can be taken apart (than would be the only way to thread it), I'm just concerned it may not be adjustable enough. It also looks like it has a lot of D'rings that are fixed and not repositionable. This might be an issue if you want D-rings in other places besides the locations they picked, or maybe no D-rings at all.
It's kind of getting away from the whole minimal approach that a standard no frills Hog harness is famous for and why it's so cool. It's simple, cheap, and infinitely adjustable and versitile. Once you learn how to adjust and use a Hog harness getting out is lightning fast.
I concur, the comfort harness is only usable with OxyCheq ULBP for me.
here is another alternative to the freedom plate : http://www.addheliumstore.com/oxycheq-ss-travel-backplate.html
 
Thanks for your post backing me up, though I don't really care if DSD believes either of us or not :)

Yeah, I didn't think she could stay away from the argument. :)

Also clearly this instructor is not the only one teaching ditch and don in trimix course either! http://www.scubapost.net/forums/showpost.php?p=27146&postcount=6

I never said I didn't believe that it wasn't being taught... I asked who the instructor was that required it. You were the one that got onto this "lying" tangent and got all defensive. I never made any accusations to you or even said whether or not I believed what you were saying. I only asked who was teaching that, to which you started accusing me of calling you a "liar."

I've sent the same question to ScubaSean. I'd like to know what agency this is and whether or not it was a required skill. Maybe he can give me a straightforward answer.

:)
 
You know, after looking at the photo of the Oxycheq comfort harness I'm starting to have doubts that it will work that well with a Freedom Plate. It looks like the webbing the way it's attached to the Oxy plate has a certain "fixed" amount of webbing between shoulder padding to shoulder padding. I don't doubt that it can be taken apart (than would be the only way to thread it), I'm just concerned it may not be adjustable enough. It also looks like it has a lot of D'rings that are fixed and not repositionable. This might be an issue if you want D-rings in other places besides the locations they picked, or maybe no D-rings at all.

Thanks for the response, Eric! :)

It's kind of getting away from the whole minimal approach that a standard no frills Hog harness is famous for and why it's so cool. It's simple, cheap, and infinitely adjustable and versitile. Once you learn how to adjust and use a Hog harness getting out is lightning fast.

+1. :D
 
here is another alternative to the freedom plate : Oxycheq SS Travel Backplate

Yikes. :D

Hey, that wouldn't happen to be the travel version of the plate that I recommended, would it? :)

Okay, let's be fair to Eric, here... Still trying not to give up on that idea. :)

The simple solution would be to just order the hogarthian system that I recommended originally - and specifically gave a link to a couple of posts ago. The cost would be like $30, and then you'll have everything - you can report how the Oxycheq Complicated Harness works with the Unusual New Guy plate, and if the two don't jive, then you can rig the Unusual New Guy plate with the harness it was designed to accept.

...Then you can get Eric to advise and make sure that it's rigged properly. I never did it the way it was supposed to be rigged, but I'm sure that Eric will make sure you do.

Then I want to see a full review. :)
 
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Eric, have you ever had a problem fitting a larger-diameter tank onto one of your Freedom Plates using a standard cam band? Particularly with the lower band?
 
Really? I was kinda feeling bad about writing novels during my debate with Sas. Hey, y'all - if it gets long and boring, just skip over it. :)

The long boring bits are the same topics being re-hashed over and over, unnecessarily.

Wow... "Liar," "Idiot," and now "Prick." All in one thread. :) I think that's a "personal best" for me. :)
And yet it seems to require no effort on your part!

Yeah, I know I'm being a prick about it... I could have dropped it a long time ago. So could other people, by the way. But clearly, it's misinformation that's being propagated by people who don't know that they don't know. I tried giving straightforward information, but people keep arguing with me, even though my points are consistent with what the agencies say. I'm hoping that my insistence gets through at some point over all of the noise. :)
No, you keep banging on about not separating from your life support like Sas was saying to doff it and swim off somewhere when you knew quite plainly that that was not what she was saying.


There's no misinterpretation, and I'm not twisting anything. I'd be interested in a specific example (with quotes) if you're willing to do the legwork. Expect me to defend my position, though. I'm all ears. :)
I would, I don't have the time right now, but I will.


Well, that's all I said. That, and "NEVER separate yourself from your life support." When Sas and John blurred the line and brought up, "take your rig off, but leave your reg in," (which they were talking about all along - very different from my original point)
If you knew they were making a diff point, then why argue as if they are the same?

I told them, well, fine, but I still don't see a reason why you'd ever need to do that. I've never personally seen a need to do that, and I've never seen anyone else have a need to do that."
I've never had to do it or seen anyone that has either. It is highly unlikely that anyone would HAVE to doff their gear but that's not to say it can't happen.

To me, what's apparent is that I have never changed my perspective or claim... They appear to me to be clouding the argument and blurring my original point with another claim... I haven't misinterpreted anything.
No you just kept pressing a point that wasn't. Your 'urban myth' of someone leaving their rig on the bottom while they swim into a wreck breath hold is clearly not they same as practising donning/doffing gear underwater.

If I had, clearly, I would admit it and apologize. That personality characteristic should be obvious by now.
It is not obvious in this thread and it is the only one of yours I believe I have read. I actually thought you were a pretty level headed sort of a guy at the start of this thread, but you were like a dog with a bone regarding this whole donning/doffing thing, but with the wrong bone!


Yes, and I did, too.

But Sas's post regarding that came AFTER I said, "NEVER separate yourself..." Her post was one of the first to go off on a tangent and cloud the original point.

...Which I have been chastized for and personally insulted for, all the while being accused of chastizing and personally insulting.
If you knew they are diff points,why argue them as the same? And you accuse Saspotato of arguing for the sake of it!! :confused:


Sure, I'm sure it's been done before, too. But the original post that kicked all of this off wasn't hers - it was mine, saying, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support..." I also told the urban legend story for the first time. :) So Sas's doffing and donning post was a tangent from that.
We've already covered this.

Hey, who was the instructor that required the practice during a trimix certification? I'm not saying it didn't happen or that someone is a liar... I'm saying that what I'm being told simply doesn't make sense, and I'd like to understand more.
And this.


Absolutely! Or email them or PM them or whatever and try to understand what was really going on - because the story as it's been told doesn't make any sense.
Well, just accept that in your mind it doesn't make sense!

I don't think any instructor would be offended if someone called them up out of the blue and said, "Hey, apparently you're requiring a doff and don of gear for a trimix certification. My trimix certifications didn't even require a dive... Am I missing something? What's the point of doing a doff and don for a trimix cert?" I'm sure that they would be thrilled to tell me why, if it was really a requirement. We instructors don't do things for no reason, you know. :)
I don't think it is a matter of being 'offended', more why bother discussing something with someone who's opinion they most likely couldn't care less about. The instructor isn't part of this thread (as far as I know) so why would they care if you don't agree with the way they do things?

We're not going to name names over the internet, if fact, I've never met the guy. If he cares passionately enough about what SB members think of this instructing capabilities then he'll be here somewhere and most likely read this post. Somehow I don't think he does. You can like that or not, I care even less than he would.


Are you talking about the sidemount diver? We already discussed that - my response to it was, "I have never considered a sidemount diver to be removing his life support when doing this," and asked if she knew why. She didn't respond with a direct answer.

I would be thrilled to see the video, as I'm sure it would plainly show why a sidemount diver who pushed his tanks ahead of him isn't separating himself from his life support.

He also never removes his BC.
My post was gender non-specific.


Good on ya, bloke. :) The rest of us don't care what gender you are when talking about diving. If you and your buddies do, that's fine.

My point about it all was, "If you're offended when people get your gender wrong, then take responsibility for it and make it more obvious. Then less people will call you the wrong gender." That's not bull****... That's straightforward. It's bull**** to make believe that everyone else should somehow go in and do research about you so that they don't get it wrong. I didn't do that - and I doubt many will. If you care about it, then take responsibility for it and do something about it - dont expect everyone else to change to make you happy.
My point is it doesn't matter if you are referring to a diver in general as in "a diver should be able to remove his rig underwater...", but when directly address or referring to someone it is bad manners. Show the people you care enough to bother finding this out or else keep it gender non-specific. It really isn't difficult.


I AM lazy (particularly today), I don't think I'm unusual in this one. She said it was a "pet hate" of hers, so apparently I'm not the only one making the error. If it consistently bothers her, then she has the ability to do something about it.
And you said your "pet hate" was 'me and a buddy'. Someone could equally have dragged an argument on and on about how when trying to type a response quickly (sometimes at work) to keep the thread flowing, we should not get too hung up on the informal writing style on internet forums with regard grammar, spelling and typos.

But perhaps we should throw this back on to you and say it is in fact YOUR fault for a grammatical error in someone else's post, that's the equivalent arguement.

Lol! What, are you from Thailand or something? :D Just kidding. :)
No never been. You?

Nothing. My quote is being taken out of context. I said, "Mask on face, regs in mouth, fins on feet, full tank when you go in..." My point wasn't the full tank, just that it wasn't empty. :)
Ahhh, so your point was taken out of context.

Wow - who is training you guys over there?
Gee, maybe we need to get some Yanks to come over and show us what to do!
(A little return fire for those Aussie snipes.)

The other night we were doing a pier dive. We had a plan of where we were going, depths times etc. We had 4 divers planning to dive in a loose formation 2 buddy pairs. Just before we started our decent one of the divers in other pair had a reg freeflow on the surface. This was not his gear, he was trying it out. By the time he'd stopped the freeflow he'd lost about 15 Bar.

Suddenly one diver was 15 Bar lower than we had planned on a pier dive to 7 metres!! OMG!! We proceeded, but I know now that we put ourselves in great danger and that we should have called the dive there and then because it no longer matched our plan.

Sounds almost like the stuff I've been taught, there's just a twist or two... Where'd you learn this stuff?
Most probably similar places you did.

Right? I'm in agreeance [sic] with you there - it wasn't fixed. They thought it was fixed, and it wasn't.
It happens. Even professional (that's a whole 'nother thread!) service techs get it wrong sometimes. What is your point other to bang on endlessly about it?

What did they do differently at depth that convinced them that it was now, truly fixed? I mean, if it started leaking again and it it was decided that it wasn't, in fact, fixed, then why repeat the "fix" if they knew it wasn't going to "fix it?"
Don't know, wasn't there.

...But then it WAS fixed... Apparently they did something different the second time over the first. What was it?

I never got a direct answer to that, either.
Again, read what is written! Even the service technician who serviced the regs afterwards could not find a fault or suggest where the problem had occurred. Yes it is weird, yes it is puzzling, but the fact is Sas doesn't know what went wrong but they dealt with the situation at the time the best they could, monitored it and were ready to thumb the dive if it persisted. It didn't.

I dunno - maybe so. I never passed judgement on it. I only asked what was different the second time over the first. Never got an answer.
Covered already.

No they don't. Sometimes vibration can vibrate them out or something, but it generally doesn't happen so soon after a fix.
You are like a dog with a bone. It appeared to be fixed, but later turned out it wasn't. Not ideal granted, but sh!t happens.

I agree - it appeared to be good teamwork. I still worry about the decision to continue to dive an errant reg. Combined with some of the other things that she's said, I voiced my opinion about the level of safety that she was voicing and what she was encouraging other divers to do.
So you don't agree with her, whoop! SB would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed about everything.

*sigh* "Liar," "Idiot," "Prick," and now "Knob." I'm setting the bar higher and higher! :D
Well...that's one way to look at it.


Wow... "Knob" x 2. :D
Yep. Mind you, you have worked hard for it!

You know, if I had twisted her words, I would have said, "Hey, I twisted words. I'm sorry." But I never did.
Well I think you have, as do others. If I had the time I'd go back and quote them. I will try and do it later.

You, on the other hand, have called me a "prick" and a "knob." I am not insulted - it's just that personal attacks make you look like you can't debate rationally and must resort to personal attacks. Aside from that, it's against ScubaBoard's Terms of Service (TOS). Please refrain, debate more contructively, and act more maturely. Thank you. :)
Ha! If you think that being called a 'Prick' and 'Knob' are insults then be careful what you say next time you're on the Gold Coast! :) These are not intended as insults, they are observations. I don't know you so ergo I don't know if you are a prick, but I do know you are acting like one! Ohh...and a knob! :D

Okay, then... Enjoy it. :)

For what it's worth, that person hasn't "separated themselves from their life support," so your point is kinda moot. Yes, I can see that some people will doff their gear - Sas and I already established that when I said, "I suppose I would do that if nothing else worked..." I also said, "I doubt you're going to shoot to the surface and embolize," but I still wouldn't see that as a reason to practice the skill. What - just for this one dive?
This isn't me BTW, but yep, if I was there it's what I would do. FWIW, this is what I interpreted what Sas meant when she was talking about separating for one's gear.

I have heard a story (admittedly it is only a story I've never seen i written as fact) about a diver who was tangled in an old fishing net. She dropped her one and only cutting implement (knife) and was found drowned in the net. The story goes if she had doffed her gear she may have been able to do a CESA and may have survived.

This could be another urban myth, I don't know.

This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with my original post about the urban legend.
This is my point. You an Sas are not debating the same thing. You say don't doff you gear [and leave it on the sand while you swim off] and she says it is a good skill to be able to take it off and put it on underwater.

I actually agree with both of you here. I don't think it is a good idea to take the rig off and swim off breath hold unless it was an emergency and unavoidable.

I also agree with Sas that it is a handy skill to practice but, personally, I'm too lazy to practice it myself, but I believe there is a remote chance that one day I might need to.

You mileage quite obviously varies.

Oh, and BTW. When you go back and modify one of you previous post, given this intense debate about he said she said, I think you should be posting what your edits are. :wink: You can't go back and change what you have written.
 
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I concur, the comfort harness is only usable with OxyCheq ULBP for me.
here is another alternative to the freedom plate : Oxycheq SS Travel Backplate

That thing isn't even close to a freedom plate. All that is is just a standard doubles channel plate with the sides cut away so it's lighter for travel. That style is designed to put doubles on. The top tab and the bottom tabs that stick out where you attach the webbing is where the tanks would ride. The tanks would then rest on each side of your back exactly like they would with a full channel plate.

Personally I would just use a 1950's style harness straight on a tank like they did on Sea Hunt before I'd use that.
 
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No, you keep banging on about not separating from your life support like Sas was saying to doff it and swim off somewhere when you knew quite plainly that that was not what she was saying.

You're missing the point. I said, "NEVER separate (sound familiar?) yourself from your life support..." This said after I gave the urban legend story. Then SHE got off on the tangent of donning and doffing. If you want to talk tangets, you're talking to the wrong person.

I would, I don't have the time right now, but I will.

K. :)

If you knew they were making a diff point, then why argue as if they are the same?

I didn't... I continued the same statements. My claims haven't changed. She began to argue the point with me, saying that "it depends."

I've never had to do it or seen anyone that has either.

Thank you for proving the point that I was making from the outset. :)

It is highly unlikely that anyone would HAVE to doff their gear

Again, thanks. That's all I was saying.

but that's not to say it can't happen.

True. You know, you're all right. :)

No you just kept pressing a point that wasn't. Your 'urban myth' of someone leaving their rig on the bottom while they swim into a wreck breath hold is clearly not they same as practising donning/doffing gear underwater.

True. Agreed. :)

It is not obvious in this thread and it is the only one of yours I believe I have read.

Jeez, you might want to read some of the others. You appear to be upset and arguing the wrong side.

I actually thought you were a pretty level headed sort of a guy at the start of this thread, but you were like a dog with a bone regarding this whole donning/doffing thing, but with the wrong bone!

Lol... I AM a pretty level-headed guy. It's a prerequisite in my business. :)

Never once have I resorted to personal attacks, despite the fact that I have been personally attacked several times. When I talked with Eric and realized that I hadn't given his plate a fair shake, I said so and apologized. What other example of level-headedness do you want? I think you were right in your initial impression. :)

If you knew they are diff points,why argue them as the same? And you accuse Saspotato of arguing for the sake of it!! :confused:

Actually, there were several times where I said that we didn't have anything to argue about, and that our opinions were more alike than different. See for yourself.

We've already covered this.

Yes, I've covered much of this before. I AM repeating myself - but apparently you didn't catch it the first time I said it.

I don't think it is a matter of being 'offended', more why bother discussing something with someone who's opinion they most likely couldn't care less about. The instructor isn't part of this thread (as far as I know) so why would they care if you don't agree with the way they do things?

Who said I wanted to convince an instructor of anything? I gave several reasons why I'd want to find out more information... None of them were "to convince the other instructor of something."

We're not going to name names over the internet, if fact, I've never met the guy.

Fair enough, your perrogative. See what I told Sas when she said the same.

If he cares passionately enough about what SB members think of this instructing capabilities then he'll be here somewhere and most likely read this post. Somehow I don't think he does. You can like that or not, I care even less than he would.

??? Weird. None of the things I said I wanted to ask had anything to do with the result that you suggest would occur.

My point is it doesn't matter if you are referring to a diver in general as in "a diver should be able to remove his rig underwater...", but when directly address or referring to someone it is bad manners. Show the people you care enough to bother finding this out or else keep it gender non-specific. It really isn't difficult.

YOU are going to lecture me about manners? Aren't you the guy who just called me a "prick" and a "knob?"

Given that I didn't call you any names, I'd say that I've got a better grasp on manners than you do.

And you said your "pet hate" was 'me and a buddy'. Someone could equally have dragged an argument on and on about how when trying to type a response quickly (sometimes at work) to keep the thread flowing, we should not get too hung up on the informal writing style on internet forums with regard grammar, spelling and typos.

You're just picking to pick, now. Whatever. I said that the "Me and _____" was a pet peeve of mine, and it is. So?

But perhaps we should throw this back on to you and say it is in fact YOUR fault for a grammatical error in someone else's post, that's the equivalent arguement.

Hm. Dunno, man... That's a pretty big leap there. If you can't see how Sas can control how people refer to her regarding gender-specific pronouns, then I don't know what to tell you.

No never been. You?

Hahahahahahaa... No, but I've heard some horror stories.

Ahhh, so your point was taken out of context.

Yes. Now you're catching on. :)

Gee, maybe we need to get some Yanks to come over and show us what to do!
(A little return fire for those Aussie snipes.)

Heh. Love it. :)

The other night we were doing a pier dive. We had a plan of where we were going, depths times etc. We had 4 divers planning to dive in a loose formation 2 buddy pairs. Just before we started our decent one of the divers in other pair had a reg freeflow on the surface. This was not his gear, he was trying it out. By the time he'd stopped the freeflow he'd lost about 15 Bar.

Suddenly one diver was 15 Bar lower than we had planned on a pier dive to 7 metres!! OMG!! We proceeded, but I know now that we put ourselves in great danger and that we should have called the dive there and then because it no longer matched our plan.

Time for a plan revision, unless the lost gas doesn't affect the plan. Have you not learned this stuff before?

Most probably similar places you did.

Yeah, I would think so... But it seems we've got very different ideas, so I was asking. You know, a straight answer might help.

It happens. Even professional (that's a whole 'nother thread!) service techs get it wrong sometimes. What is your point other to bang on endlessly about it?

I don't have one - nor do I want to "bang on endlessly about it." We already resolved the argument, as far as I was concerned, and you brought it back up again, agreeing with my point.

What were you trying to say?

Don't know, wasn't there.

Yeah, me neither. And the more I ask, the more I don't get a straight answer... And am then accused of calling someone a "liar." Strange.

Again, read what is written! Even the service technician who serviced the regs afterwards could not find a fault or suggest where the problem had occurred.

Yes, I read that.

Look harder. Just 'cause you don't know what the issue was, doesn't mean that there isn't one.

I can assure you that if my regs weren't working right, I'd know why and how to provide a permanent fix (so that it stays fixed). After all, my ability to breathe with them may be affected. That seems like a logical response to the situation.

A response of, "I have no idea what the problem was, and since I haven't had the problem since, I trust my life to the regs working right (because I solo dive)" doesnt' seem quite so logical.

Okay, so they're not her regs - but I don't see how that would affect the logical response. You're either using them or you're not, so I would think that one might want to have a reasonable assurance that they work.

Covered already.

I think you meant, "Not covered already." I never got a straight answer.

You are like a dog with a bone. It appeared to be fixed, but later turned out it wasn't.

I thought it was fixed, too, then you brought it back up. :)

So you don't agree with her, whoop! SB would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed about everything.

Yep... I agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In fact, I have actually said that in several of my posts. Good point - I couldn't agree more, as evidenced by my prior posts. :)

Well I think you have (twisted her words), as do others. If I had the time I'd go back and quote them. I will try and do it later.

How could you believe that, when plainly you just said that you have only read one of my posts?

I look forward to your results. :)

Ha! If you think that being called a 'Prick' and 'Knob' are insults then be careful what you say next time you're on the Gold Coast! :)

Lol... I couldn't agree with you more - may be why I have no problem dealing with your personal attacks. :)

These are not intended as insults, they are observations.

Nice backhanded insult. Very good. :)

I don't know you

Lol... In fact, you haven't even read my posts. Good of you to have a basis for such a bold and offensive opinion. :)

so ergo I don't know if you are a prick, but I do know you are acting like one! Ohh...and a knob! :D

Lol... Strangely amused while being insulted. Is this a special flavor of Aussie entertainment?

In fact, I recall being warned about it once specifically. :)

I have heard a story (admittedly it is only a story I've never seen i written as fact) about a diver who was tangled in an old fishing net. She dropped her one and only cutting implement (knife) and was found drowned in the net. The story goes if she had doffed her gear she may have been able to do a CESA and may have survived.

Well, there ya go... Good reason to doff your gear - a story you once heard. :) Any names connected to this story? Where'd you hear it? Where did it happen? Was it investigated? What were the results of the investigation?

Why would this story not be a reason to wear multiple cutting tools?

C'mon, man... You're not really using that story with absolutely no factual evidence as justification for leaving your life support and doing a CESA, are you?

This could be another urban myth, I don't know.

Oh, okay. You were scaring me for a moment, there, man. :)

I don't know if it's an urban legend or not... Care to do some investigation so that we can find out if there's any truth in it?

This is my point. You an Sas are not debating the same thing.

Actually, we're not debating anything any more. :)

But yes, I agree that we weren't debating the same thing. I mentioned that several times, but it didn't seem to stop her. :)

...Just like I'm doing with you... Yes, you're right. Great point. If you read my posts, you'll find that I mentioned these things pages ago.

You say don't doff you gear [and leave it on the sand while you swim off] and she says it is a good skill to be able to take it off and put it on underwater.

Exactly. :)

I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support" after citing the urban legend. That's when she chimed in about donning and doffing gear. In the context of my comment and the urban legend story that I told, it took a couple of pages before we realized that she was talking about something different.

Once that was established, I said, "I don't know of any reason why you'd want to don and doff," but "if that's what you want to do, then feel free." I later specifically said that I have never needed to don and doff at depth, despite my diving specifically in the situations that she was citing as reasons to don and doff at depth. Finally, I told her that, left no other options, I suppose that I would don and doff, and even told John that he'd probably be able to do it just fine... But that there were probably other, simpler options.

See? I've been very consistent throughout the discussion - I think you called it "level headed." :)

I actually agree with both of you here. I don't think it is a good idea to take the rig off and swim off breath hold unless it was an emergency and unavoidable.

Fair enough. I agree with that statement, although the "emergency and unavoidable" part is kinda tough to swallow. What kind of unavoidable emergency would preclude you leaving your life support while you swim away?

I also agree with Sas that it is a handy skill to practice but, personally, I'm too lazy to practice it myself, but I believe there is a remote chance that one day I might need to.

You mileage quite obviously varies.

Fair enough. A remote chance that you may have to doff and don? My feeling is that it's really remote, but if it makes you feel better, then fine. It's the "swimming off without your life support" thing that I really had an issue with.

The "doff and don at depth" thing is just a bad idea, IMHO, but I don't think someone's life is threatened until they're actually separated from their life support.

Oh, and BTW. When you go back and modify one of you previous post, given this intense debate about he said she said, I think you should be posting what your edits are. :wink: You can't go back and change what you have written.

Lol... I usually post and then go back and check for typos and grammar. I feel it's easier than looking through a little box, trying to do it.

Ten years ago, you could only edit posts here for an hour after they were posted. It appears that that time limit is longer now, but there's probably still a limit. I don't think I can edit posts after an hour or two... Anyone know for sure?

Point being - I'm not changing my posts... At least not in the method that you're implying.
 
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