No, you keep banging on about not separating from your life support like Sas was saying to doff it and swim off somewhere when you knew quite plainly that that was not what she was saying.
You're missing the point. I said, "NEVER separate (sound familiar?) yourself from your life support..." This said after I gave the urban legend story. Then SHE got off on the tangent of donning and doffing. If you want to talk tangets, you're talking to the wrong person.
I would, I don't have the time right now, but I will.
K.
If you knew they were making a diff point, then why argue as if they are the same?
I didn't... I continued the same statements. My claims haven't changed. She began to argue the point with me, saying that "it depends."
I've never had to do it or seen anyone that has either.
Thank you for proving the point that I was making from the outset.
It is highly unlikely that anyone would HAVE to doff their gear
Again, thanks. That's all I was saying.
but that's not to say it can't happen.
True. You know, you're all right.
No you just kept pressing a point that wasn't. Your 'urban myth' of someone leaving their rig on the bottom while they swim into a wreck breath hold is clearly not they same as practising donning/doffing gear underwater.
True. Agreed.
It is not obvious in this thread and it is the only one of yours I believe I have read.
Jeez, you might want to read some of the others. You appear to be upset and arguing the wrong side.
I actually thought you were a pretty level headed sort of a guy at the start of this thread, but you were like a dog with a bone regarding this whole donning/doffing thing, but with the wrong bone!
Lol... I AM a pretty level-headed guy. It's a prerequisite in my business.
Never once have I resorted to personal attacks, despite the fact that I have been personally attacked several times. When I talked with Eric and realized that I hadn't given his plate a fair shake, I said so and apologized. What other example of level-headedness do you want? I think you were right in your initial impression.
If you knew they are diff points,why argue them as the same? And you accuse Saspotato of arguing for the sake of it!!
Actually, there were several times where I said that we didn't have anything to argue about, and that our opinions were more alike than different. See for yourself.
We've already covered this.
Yes, I've covered much of this before. I AM repeating myself - but apparently you didn't catch it the first time I said it.
I don't think it is a matter of being 'offended', more why bother discussing something with someone who's opinion they most likely couldn't care less about. The instructor isn't part of this thread (as far as I know) so why would they care if you don't agree with the way they do things?
Who said I wanted to convince an instructor of anything? I gave several reasons why I'd want to find out more information... None of them were "to convince the other instructor of something."
We're not going to name names over the internet, if fact, I've never met the guy.
Fair enough, your perrogative. See what I told Sas when she said the same.
If he cares passionately enough about what SB members think of this instructing capabilities then he'll be here somewhere and most likely read this post. Somehow I don't think he does. You can like that or not, I care even less than he would.
??? Weird. None of the things I said I wanted to ask had anything to do with the result that you suggest would occur.
My point is it doesn't matter if you are referring to a diver in general as in "a diver should be able to remove his rig underwater...", but when directly address or referring to someone it is bad manners. Show the people you care enough to bother finding this out or else keep it gender non-specific. It really isn't difficult.
YOU are going to lecture me about manners? Aren't you the guy who just called me a "prick" and a "knob?"
Given that I didn't call you any names, I'd say that I've got a better grasp on manners than you do.
And you said your "pet hate" was 'me and a buddy'. Someone could equally have dragged an argument on and on about how when trying to type a response quickly (sometimes at work) to keep the thread flowing, we should not get too hung up on the informal writing style on internet forums with regard grammar, spelling and typos.
You're just picking to pick, now. Whatever. I said that the "Me and _____" was a pet peeve of mine, and it is. So?
But perhaps we should throw this back on to you and say it is in fact YOUR fault for a grammatical error in someone else's post, that's the equivalent arguement.
Hm. Dunno, man... That's a pretty big leap there. If you can't see how Sas can control how people refer to her regarding gender-specific pronouns, then I don't know what to tell you.
Hahahahahahaa... No, but I've heard some horror stories.
Ahhh, so your point was taken out of context.
Yes. Now you're catching on.
Gee, maybe we need to get some Yanks to come over and show us what to do!
(A little return fire for those Aussie snipes.)
Heh. Love it.
The other night we were doing a pier dive. We had a plan of where we were going, depths times etc. We had 4 divers planning to dive in a loose formation 2 buddy pairs. Just before we started our decent one of the divers in other pair had a reg freeflow on the surface. This was not his gear, he was trying it out. By the time he'd stopped the freeflow he'd lost about 15 Bar.
Suddenly one diver was 15 Bar lower than we had planned on a pier dive to 7 metres!! OMG!! We proceeded, but I know now that we put ourselves in great danger and that we should have called the dive there and then because it no longer matched our plan.
Time for a plan revision, unless the lost gas doesn't affect the plan. Have you not learned this stuff before?
Most probably similar places you did.
Yeah, I would think so... But it seems we've got very different ideas, so I was asking. You know, a straight answer might help.
It happens. Even professional (that's a whole 'nother thread!) service techs get it wrong sometimes. What is your point other to bang on endlessly about it?
I don't have one - nor do I want to "bang on endlessly about it." We already resolved the argument, as far as I was concerned, and you brought it back up again, agreeing with my point.
What were you trying to say?
Don't know, wasn't there.
Yeah, me neither. And the more I ask, the more I don't get a straight answer... And am then accused of calling someone a "liar." Strange.
Again, read what is written! Even the service technician who serviced the regs afterwards could not find a fault or suggest where the problem had occurred.
Yes, I read that.
Look harder. Just 'cause you don't know what the issue was, doesn't mean that there isn't one.
I can assure you that if my regs weren't working right, I'd know why and how to provide a permanent fix (so that it stays fixed). After all, my ability to breathe with them may be affected. That seems like a logical response to the situation.
A response of, "I have no idea what the problem was, and since I haven't had the problem since, I trust my life to the regs working right (because I solo dive)" doesnt' seem quite so logical.
Okay, so they're not her regs - but I don't see how that would affect the logical response. You're either using them or you're not, so I would think that one might want to have a reasonable assurance that they work.
I think you meant, "Not covered already." I never got a straight answer.
You are like a dog with a bone. It appeared to be fixed, but later turned out it wasn't.
I thought it was fixed, too, then you brought it back up.
So you don't agree with her, whoop! SB would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed about everything.
Yep... I agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In fact, I have actually said that in several of my posts. Good point - I couldn't agree more, as evidenced by my prior posts.
Well I think you have (twisted her words), as do others. If I had the time I'd go back and quote them. I will try and do it later.
How could you believe that, when plainly you just said that you have only read one of my posts?
I look forward to your results.
Ha! If you think that being called a
'Prick' and
'Knob' are insults then be careful what you say next time you're on the Gold Coast!
Lol... I couldn't agree with you more - may be why I have no problem dealing with your personal attacks.
These are not intended as insults, they are observations.
Nice backhanded insult. Very good.
Lol... In fact, you haven't even read my posts. Good of you to have a basis for such a bold and offensive opinion.
so ergo I don't
know if you are a prick, but I do know you are acting like one! Ohh...and a knob!
Lol... Strangely amused while being insulted. Is this a special flavor of Aussie entertainment?
In fact, I recall being warned about it once specifically.
I have heard a story (admittedly it is only a story I've never seen i written as fact) about a diver who was tangled in an old fishing net. She dropped her one and only cutting implement (knife) and was found drowned in the net. The story goes if she had doffed her gear she may have been able to do a CESA and may have survived.
Well, there ya go... Good reason to doff your gear - a story you once heard.
Any names connected to this story? Where'd you hear it? Where did it happen? Was it investigated? What were the results of the investigation?
Why would this story not be a reason to wear multiple cutting tools?
C'mon, man... You're not really using that story with absolutely no factual evidence as justification for leaving your life support and doing a CESA, are you?
This could be another urban myth, I don't know.
Oh, okay. You were scaring me for a moment, there, man.
I don't know if it's an urban legend or not... Care to do some investigation so that we can find out if there's any truth in it?
This is my point. You an Sas are not debating the same thing.
Actually, we're not debating anything any more.
But yes, I agree that we weren't debating the same thing. I mentioned that several times, but it didn't seem to stop her.
...Just like I'm doing with you... Yes, you're right. Great point. If you read my posts, you'll find that I mentioned these things pages ago.
You say don't doff you gear [and leave it on the sand while you swim off] and she says it is a good skill to be able to take it off and put it on underwater.
Exactly.
I said, "NEVER separate yourself from your life support" after citing the urban legend. That's when she chimed in about donning and doffing gear. In the context of my comment and the urban legend story that I told, it took a couple of pages before we realized that she was talking about something different.
Once that was established, I said, "I don't know of any reason why you'd want to don and doff," but "if that's what you want to do, then feel free." I later specifically said that I have never needed to don and doff at depth, despite my diving specifically in the situations that she was citing as reasons to don and doff at depth. Finally, I told her that, left no other options, I suppose that I would don and doff, and even told John that he'd probably be able to do it just fine... But that there were probably other, simpler options.
See? I've been very consistent throughout the discussion - I think you called it "level headed."
I actually agree with both of you here. I don't think it is a good idea to take the rig off and swim off breath hold unless it was an emergency and unavoidable.
Fair enough. I agree with that statement, although the "emergency and unavoidable" part is kinda tough to swallow. What kind of unavoidable emergency would preclude you leaving your life support while you swim away?
I also agree with Sas that it is a handy skill to practice but, personally, I'm too lazy to practice it myself, but I believe there is a remote chance that one day I might need to.
You mileage quite obviously varies.
Fair enough. A remote chance that you may have to doff and don? My feeling is that it's
really remote, but if it makes you feel better, then fine. It's the "swimming off without your life support" thing that I really had an issue with.
The "doff and don at depth" thing is just a bad idea, IMHO, but I don't think someone's life is threatened until they're actually separated from their life support.
Oh, and BTW. When you go back and modify one of you previous post, given this intense debate about he said she said, I think you should be posting what your edits are.
You can't go back and change what you have written.
Lol... I usually post and then go back and check for typos and grammar. I feel it's easier than looking through a little box, trying to do it.
Ten years ago, you could only edit posts here for an hour after they were posted. It appears that that time limit is longer now, but there's probably still a limit. I don't think I can edit posts after an hour or two... Anyone know for sure?
Point being - I'm not changing my posts... At least not in the method that you're implying.