Ditching the poodle jacket

[Deep South Divers]

I discussed (whether or not I doffed my rig to take care of the first stage problem) in my original post. No I did not...

I read it. My question was a rhetorical one. My point is that even THAT situation didn't require you to doff your life support.

Sure. If you read my post properly you would notice that it had a problem on the surface, I fixed it and presumed it was completely fixed. At depth it leaked again.

I read it.

If you descended to depth and the problem recurred, then you didn't fix the problem.

I thought it was fixed. It was not a LP port, it was the screw on the top of the first stage.

Kind of an odd place to leak from... Had you just had the first stage serviced? What did you do differently at depth that you didn't do topside, to fix the issue?

It was not an emergency at all. It was a slight leaking in my first stage, that my buddy fixed. If it had happened again underwater, I would have called the dive. But some problems are fixable underwater. I try to fix problems at depth, before surfacing. But if you prefer to end dives, your call.

Well, it's really easy for me to say "what I would do," because I wasn't there. If I saw a leak in a first stage prior to entering the water, I'd have figured out what the problem was and fixed it for good - maybe pulled the bolt out and regreased the O-ring or whatever. I don't think I would have provided a solution that would have come up again five minutes later at depth.

...But I wasn't there, so what's my opinion worth? Nothing.

Given a hypothetical situation - let's say a first stage begins to leak at depth from it's top bolt - I, too, would attempt a fix prior to surfacing. Like you, if the situation was fully resolved, then I'd continue the dive... But I don't think I'd consider the issue fully resolved unless I knew it was going to work well from that point on.

...And given that I don't generally dive with an allen wrench, I don't think I could have solved the issue to my life-betting satisfaction... So regardless of what was going on, I'd have probably surfaced and fixed the issue before continuing my dive.

If I was diving doubles and had an overhead (and thus not able to surface and continue), I'd have probably shut the reg down, notified my buddy, and thumbed the dive. Why risk it?

Yes. It never happened again after this time at depth.

Well, that's cool. What was the deal? These bolts don't just back themselves out... Especially that one.

No, not an LP port plug. And if you bothered to read my post, you would notice that the leak was fixed on the surface. Why did you bother to post with this big long rant without actually reading what I wrote?

I read it. The issue was not fixed if the issue wasn't fixed. You might have thought you fixed it, but you didn't.

You know, you may find my approach to things as "simplistic" or even "offensive" (John called it "my problem"), but you know, life gets really simple - and diving gets really simple - when you call it like it is and face things head on.

...Not specifically directed at Sas or anyone... Just sayin'.

Nope, I did full checks. On the surface I do the BAR check and then when we jump in we do modified s-drills, we check our regs again and then we do bubble checks. But the crotch strap thing happened a while ago, when my checks were less thorough. But it was not 'danging down the front of my shins' - it happened underwater, must have only been slightly threaded and my movement dislodged it. Or the weight of my SMB on the butt d-ring.

Sounds like you've taken steps to be more "squared away" in the future. That's probably a valid solution for the problem, so it sounds like your decision was a good one.

I'm starting to get the impression you do not read properly and that you have no idea what you are talking about. But, if you want to think I dive unsafely you are welcome to that opinion.

I read very well, thank you. If you don't see eye-to-eye with the guy that does this stuff every day and is obviously articulate and literate, then you may want to consider that the issue is many things - but probably not that I "have no idea what I'm talking about" or "do not read properly."

I do OOG drills often also, plenty of practice here.

...Then why would you say, "This is done in places where there are restrictions. I have seen video of it, but never done it myself?" Were you referring to a different type of OOG drill than what you're practicing?

Good for you. Me too. I have never separated myself from my life support system (I keep a sturdy hold of it if I have had to ditch my gear) and I have never had a reg failure other than this leak. So I think I'm doing pretty good.

Yeah, sounds like you are. Then why would you support the argument that it is somehow okay for a diver to leave his rig on the seabed while he, on a breathold, goes looking into a lobster hole for a "bug?" I mean, I read that you're not doing it, but do you not consider the practice unsafe, then?

What I originally said (which started this whole thing) was that a diver should NEVER separate himself from his life support. Based on what you said above, Sas, it sounds like you agree with this premise, even if you and I differ about the definition of "separate" means.

If ditch and don is so dangerous, why is it taught in OW?

As I said in an earlier post, I have no idea.

Someone later suggested that it was to build confidence.

In all fairness, it's taught during the pool session, in a very controlled situation. I don't know of any agency that teaches it be done in open water, at 100' of depth, to pursue a "bug" in a hole too deep or narrow for you to enter with your rig, or "by yourself" (as you eluded to in your last couple of posts - that you would have done "by yourself" if your buddy wasn't there).

I don't dive with bug hunters anymore, but not because I see it as unsafe. It is because I don't want to hang around for ages watching them under a ledge. I haven't heard of anyone carking it locally in the time that I have been diving, from bug hunting.

Dunno. I would guess that's because that's because when they breathe in, they do it with their regulator in their mouths... That, and they get out of the water before their gas runs out. Pretty basic. Anything threatening either of those two requirements is something that I would consider an unnecessary risk.

...What that means in terms of who's doffing their gear or not or the survival rate of people doing that or whatever is pure speculation otherwise. All I know is the above two truths if people aren't dying.

Yes, because comparing what I said to some diver using 108lb is a great comparison! /sarcasm. Why is ditch and don taught in OW if it is so unsafe? Why are people when doing trimix course required to ditch and don their rig with all their stages? And so on?

Again, how is some eejit drink driving comparable to ditch and don? Are you kidding me?

How is street racing comparable to ditch and don? You're getting more and more irrelevant.

My point wasn't to compare you to anyone. I simply said, "The last time someone told me, 'It's not really a big deal,' these were the results..." Forgive me if I question why someone would accept unnecessary risk, and forgive me if I point out that I've heard those words before, and have seen a correlation between those words and dire consequences. What do you want me to tell you? I'm not making this stuff up - experience has taught me that there is a correlation, and I'm simply pointing it out to you. It's your call whether or not it applies to you or the people that you're watching dive or John or whoever.

...Which is why I question why you (or John) thinks I am attacking you personally. I have not said, "Sas, you're gonna die," or, "Sas, you're a liar," or, "Sas, you're an idiot." *I* was called those things earlier (a personal attack), but I have never personally attacked you or anyone else.

...And if you know that separating yourself from your life support is unsafe, then why would you argue the point with me?

I have not advised people to not have working regs and not to check gear. Gear can fail at depth you know? And it is good to have options for dealing with it. I maintain that ditch and don is not unsafe.

Well, I'm realizing that there is a blurry line between what you're talking about (removing your rig but not letting go of it) and what I am talking about (leaving your rig altogether), but whatever. You and I are both entitled to our opinions, which may agree more than disagree anyway.

You can say whatever you want. You can talk about how unsafe I am, etc, etc. I don't care. I won't be diving with you. My buddies know I am a safe diver and that's all that matters to me.

Yeah, and they know better than I do, for you and I have never dived together. That's why I said, "You're too smart to be diving unsafe, and too smart to be recommending unsafe practices to others."

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Hey, no sweat, Eric. Fair is fair, right? I screwed up - in my line of work, it's not a matter of "manning up" or whatever - ya just gotta face the facts and do what you can to fix it. Sometimes a life depends on it, and sometimes a lot of money depends on it. Do it all the time, and it gets to be "instinctual," so you always think that way and never have to pause to consider what to do when you screw up... Ya just fix it and make it right.

Joe took the undeserved review off of ScubaToys today. Gone. I'll rewrite when we reconfigure and redive the plate.



Ummmmm... 11" centers? My other STA fit the plate... And a standard wing fit the plate, too... Both of those are 11" centers.

The rear channel was bolted, not welded... How would you get a wing on a welded Freedom Plate?

Eric, with all due respect (and a bit of humility and embarrassment, too), are you messin' with me? Defensive mode, maybe? Welded channel? 5 1/2" centers? How would a diver put a wing on their rig with 5 1/2" centers?



He's not working again until the 12th of March - and I'm in Nassau, Bahamas until then, anyway. But I did call him last night and ask him a bunch of questions and told him about this thread and what was going on. We'll be screwing around with the plate again at that time and I'll get some photos of it and post them. Maybe that'll explain why I wrote the review like I did - and maybe dispel the accusations that I've endured.

The owner of the plate is a member here in ScubaBoard, too, and when I asked him to check out what was going on, he was a bit embarrassed, too. Not sure if he's willing to post name and numbers and any other sort of identification (gonna leave it up to him). I think he feels responsible - you and I both know that he was the one that put those bolts in the plate like that, and/or could have talked to you or followed the instructions, or whatever. I kinda chewed on him about it a little, seeing as it caused me a bit of public embarrassment.

The Freedom Plate was never designed to use an STA with 11" center holes. To use a wing you simply sandwich the wing between the rail and the tank and the wing freefloats until you position it exactly where you want it then you snap down the cam bands (2) and the pressure from the cam bands is what holds the unit together. It couldn't be more simple. The chosen wing has to have slots in it to work. The cam bands go all the way through the plate, through the slots in the wing, and around the tank.
With this newest design the rail can be removed if desired and the tank mounted directly on the plate with or without a wing between the tank and plate. The bottom of the latest version has a curve in the bottom of the plate below the crotch strap slot to cradle the tank and center it on the plate for use without the rail. With this method the tank rides very close to the diver. The 5.5" centers for the rail just so happens to be the centers of the verticle cam slots so it seemed like a logical place to put the screws. The screws are meant to hold the rail on only, and nothing is supposed to go between the rail and plate. Again, the rail is not an STA, it's a spacer bracket so the plate will contact your back fully while the tank has slightly more room so it doesn't ride against your butt.

If you get a chance to try it again give me a shout and I'll explain exactly the proper way to set one up. I think you'll like it for unencumbered shoulder movement for underwater work.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I've tried doffing/donning in shallow water with all weight on my rig and its very difficult. Not impossible but I wouldn't like to try it in any kinda of emergency. Same drill with a weight belt was a piece of cake.

Of course, it does indeed raise the question, why would you ever want to take your rig off. Bug hunting? Dealing with leaking first stage/o-ring problem? Adjusting tank band? Passing gear through a narrow spot where both rig and human can't pass at same time (wreck/cave)? Changing your crotch strap

I'm more than happy to lean towards the rig as life support don't take it off ever but I can see situations where it could be necessary or at least preferable (itchy back syndrome) to be able to doff and don.

I guess it's hardly that big a deal and if in 40 years you've not come across a need then perhaps it's not so important to distribute weight between human and rig. I'd prefer it that way as I'm no fan of weight belts.

J

I usually dive solo and I quite often get caught in line, usually around my tank valve. I may try for 30 seconds to get free, but many, many times I have had to remove the rig and fix a problem. To me, ditch and don of the rig is an essential skill. Maybe I'm a much less skilled diver than others.

I want to be wearing enough lead around my body to separate from my scuba unit and still be able to function underwater. If I am using a heavy steel tank and a thin suit, sometimes I wear no weight belt. If I am diving a very thick suit, sometimes I will add lead to my rig, especially for aluminum tanks.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

.... The story of John Chatterton doffing his rig and pushing it through a restriction ahead of him inside of the U-Who in order to discover the identity of the sub is a lie. Never happened.

How do you know John Chatterton is a liar? Was anyone else there to see what he did on those penetrations? To me it sounded pretty ballsy, but certainly not impossible, so I tend to believe the guy.

 

[Sas]

If you descended to depth and the problem recurred, then you didn't fix the problem.

I thought it was fixed. And the regs were pressurised for a long time when I get in the water. They were also checked by someone who services regs and they said my surface fix should stop the problem.

Kind of an odd place to leak from... Had you just had the first stage serviced? What did you do differently at depth that you didn't do topside, to fix the issue?

They were not my regs, they were on loan. They had worked fine for the two days of diving I had done before hand and they worked for the second dive that day. After this day they were sent back in for servicing. No issue was found.

Well, it's really easy for me to say "what I would do," because I wasn't there. If I saw a leak in a first stage prior to entering the water, I'd have figured out what the problem was and fixed it for good - maybe pulled the bolt out and regreased the O-ring or whatever. I don't think I would have provided a solution that would have come up again five minutes later at depth.

As I said, they were examined by both me and someone who services their own regs who is familiar with their workings. The problem appeared resolved, but you can never know for sure. Even with you doing your fix, it might not have resolved the problem. And it was not five minutes later at depth, it was probably a good while after as they had been sitting pressurised waiting for the dive for I'd say 30mins at least. These things happen, it really was no big deal.

...But I wasn't there, so what's my opinion worth? Nothing.

Pretty much.

Given a hypothetical situation - let's say a first stage begins to leak at depth from it's top bolt - I, too, would attempt a fix prior to surfacing. Like you, if the situation was fully resolved, then I'd continue the dive... But I don't think I'd consider the issue fully resolved unless I knew it was going to work well from that point on.

I thought it was fully resolved. I was wrong. These things happen. It really was no big deal as it was fixed and then serviced.

...And given that I don't generally dive with an allen wrench, I don't think I could have solved the issue to my life-betting satisfaction... So regardless of what was going on, I'd have probably surfaced and fixed the issue before continuing my dive.

The person who fixed it had a few tools in their wetnotes that they carry. If he didn't have that then I would have ended the dive.

If I was diving doubles and had an overhead (and thus not able to surface and continue), I'd have probably shut the reg down, notified my buddy, and thumbed the dive. Why risk it?

Whether I would call the dive would depend on many different factors. In this case I did not feel my safety was compromised and given I had no further issues I made the correct call.

Well, that's cool. What was the deal? These bolts don't just back themselves out... Especially that one.

I have no idea. And neither did two service technicians. And neither did the owner of the regs.

I read it. The issue was not fixed if the issue wasn't fixed. You might have thought you fixed it, but you didn't.

Sure, but I took a lot of steps before hand to ensure I fixed it. I was wrong, it happens.

You know, you may find my approach to things as "simplistic" or even "offensive" (John called it "my problem"), but you know, life gets really simple - and diving gets really simple - when you call it like it is and face things head on.

What does this even mean? You are calling things like they are that you actually didn't understand when you read the first time and you are making patronising comments towards me about my attitude towards safety and suggesting I hang out with the wrong crowd and need further instruction. You have no idea about the crowd I hang out with nor of my abilities in the water so you are calling it like you are assuming it, in fact.

Sounds like you've taken steps to be more "squared away" in the future. That's probably a valid solution for the problem, so it sounds like your decision was a good one.

Sure. As I hope you do. Everyone should strive to improve their safety.

I read very well, thank you.

It doesn't appear so. You got multiple comments by me wrong, you assumed I was male, you mixed up names and in general appear to post before you think.

If you don't see eye-to-eye with the guy that does this stuff every day and is obviously articulate and literate, then you may want to consider that the issue is many things - but probably not that I "have no idea what I'm talking about" or "do not read properly."

I don't care if you do this stuff every second - it does not excuse you from not reading a post properly before attacking it. It makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, really.

...Then why would you say, "This is done in places where there are restrictions. I have seen video of it, but never done it myself?" Were you referring to a different type of OOG drill than what you're practicing?

I guess this is a misunderstanding between what we said. I presumed you meant general OOG drills that I do. I do practice single file OOG drills but I do not practice them in real restrictions. But you made a comment that no one removes their gear to go through restrictions and this is not the case as some people do this.

Yeah, sounds like you are. Then why would you support the argument that it is somehow okay to leave your rig on the seabed while a diver, on a breathold, goes looking into a lobster hole for a "bug?" I mean, I read that you're not doing it, but do you not consider the practice unsafe, then?

Who said anything about breath hold??? I have always been talking about ditch and don, which still has the regulator in the diver's mouth. That's one use for a 7ft hose - bug hunting. I have not discussed anything other than ditch and don, which does not involve the removal of one's regulator.

What I originally said (which started this whole thing) was that a diver should NEVER separate himself from his life support. Based on what you said above, Sas, it sounds like you agree with this premise, even if you and I differ about the definition of "separate" means.

I would agree that ditching all of one's gear as well as a regulator, is an unsafe thing to do. But I have never been discussing this, just the removal of a BC.

As I said in an earlier post, I have no idea.

Someone later suggested that it was to build confidence.

Yes I said that.

In all fairness, it's taught during the pool session, in a very controlled situation. I don't know of any agency that teaches it be done in open water, at 100' of depth, to pursue a "bug" in a hole too deep or narrow for you to enter with your rig, or "by yourself" (as you eluded to in your last couple of posts - that you would have done "by yourself" if your buddy wasn't there).

I had to do it in OW course in the ocean. It is done in some technical training as I have a friend who is required to do it for trimix - not sure what depth. I would ditch and don my BC myself even without a buddy if it was necessary - say for solo diving.

Dunno. I would guess that's because that's because when they breathe in, they do it with their regulator in their mouths... That, and they get out of the water before their gas runs out. Pretty basic. Anything threatening either of those two requirements is something that I would consider an unnecessary risk.

...What that means in terms of who's doffing their gear or not or the survival rate of people doing that or whatever is pure speculation otherwise. All I know is the above two truths if people aren't dying.

Yep.

My point wasn't to compare you to anyone. I simply said, "The last time someone told me, 'It's not really a big deal,' these were the results..." Forgive me if I question why someone would accept unnecessary risk, and forgive me if I point out that I've heard those words before, and have seen a correlation between those words and dire consequences. What do you want me to tell you? I'm not making this stuff up - experience has taught me that there is a correlation, and I'm simply pointing it out to you. It's your call whether or not it applies to you or the people that you're watching dive or John or whoever.

There is a big difference between saying ditch and don is no big deal, and saying that the following are no big deal: wearing 108lb of lead, drunk driving, or street racing.

Using extreme irrelevant emotive examples to argue a point is a very poor way of making a point.

...Which is why I question why you (or John) thinks I am attacking you personally. I have not said, "Sas, you're gonna die," or, "Sas, you're a liar," or, "Sas, you're an idiot." *I* was called those things earlier (a personal attack), but I have never personally attacked you or anyone else.

I think you have been criticising me, which is cool, but you are using misread posts to do so, and you also don't know me, so your criticism is not very well founded.

...And if you know that separating yourself from your life support is unsafe, then why would you argue the point with me?

I have not argued that point. I have only been arguing that ditch and don is not unsafe.

Well, I'm realizing that there is a blurry line between what you're talking about (removing your rig but not letting go of it) and what I am talking about (leaving your rig altogether), but whatever. You and I are both entitled to our opinions, which may agree more than disagree anyway.

Basically, again you have read beyond my original intent. I never said leaving your gear entirely. I guess given you have not seen bug hunting like this you misunderstood how it is conducted with some people and just assumed I was talking about ditching your reg too. Perhaps you should stick to talking about things you have experienced rather than assuming about something.

Yeah, and they know better than I do

Yes they do. I am glad you acknowledge this.

 

[Deep South Divers]

SeaJay,

Thanks for your post. It's a shame you don't think before you speak! Remember the drill - stop, think, breath then SHOUT!

*sigh* I think just fine, thank you.

You know, John, if there's two people disagreeing about a particular topic, and one's brand new in the topic and the other's got decades of experience and does it every day, which one would you believe? Regardless of what was being argued, would it not justify at least taking a conservative approach on the matter, if you couldn't decide who to believe?

Leave your rig on.

You've clearly gotten the wrong side of parenthood. I'll get there too no doubt (I've a 4 and a 6 yr old, they're not driving just yet, indeed nor am I).

Well, put some more years behind your parenting - and your driving and theirs - before telling someone who's been doing it a long time that he's gotten the "wrong side of parenting" relative to kids and cars.

I used that example because I thought the analogy would be obvious. Give it a few years if it doesn't make sense to you yet.

But it seems (and can't you guess I've been trying to analyse this) that you are taking the old familiar parental 'just don't do this' route. Why? Cos I said 'Don't'. That's the why.

So? If they want to learn to speed and get tickets and "really learn to drive" in their own cars and paying for their own tickets and insurance and all of that, then fine... Meanwhile, I will do my best to protect them and the things that I know my family needs.

That's exactly what you're doing here. You're making absolute statements but backing them up with examples that don't apply (108lbs) or are simply silly (drunk driver). They have no application to this discussion and you haven't actually offered any 'real' reason for not doffing and donning. You keep coming up with strange examples to prove your point but don't answer the simple questions being asked of you about how you would deal with situation x. Your answer often seems to be 'don't let it happen in the first place'. And we're back to the car and drunk analogy - and somehow your daughter's still pregnant! (see, stupid ****ing analogies can be annoying).

Ah, I gotcha... You don't see the conection yet. Go diving. You will.

Facing things head on and being honest with yourself is a life philosophy that I learned mostly in diving. The world around you is clear-cut and truthful, just like it is underwater. Yes, there are shades of gray, but they present themselves as shades of gray, not black or white. Calling it a shade of gray when that's exactly what it is is a gift that comes with experience... And it applies to all of life, whether you're talking about parenting or someone telling you, "It's not really that big a deal," or writing a review to only later find out that you were the problem. It applies to whether or not the work is done, whether or not there's money in the bank, whether or not you come up as many times as you go down, and whether or not you leave your life support system on your body, where it can support your life.

I realize to the new diver this may sound "smoke and mirrors" or indirect or "pointing out the obvious," but that's really the truth - your life support works best when you're using it, and it's not laying worthlessly in the sand, 30 feet away, in a place where you aren't.

...So when someone says to me, "I know of someone who doffs all the time underwater," I can't help but to say, "Please don't recommend that practice."

You've clearly got a lot of experience. Just saying 'Cos I know' isn't going to help me evaluate whether your opinions are worth taking on board or not. If there's a good reason for doing, or not doing something, then illustrate your answers or dissect others' responses properly. But bland but irritating platitudes don't help anyone. Specially not your argument.

Okay... How else can I say, "Don't separate yourself from your life support?" I'm not talking vaguely here, John. The reason is because you need that unit to breathe. If you don't have it, then you can't breathe.

Do you need an example of that, or can you just believe it? I don't have any examples of divers that didn't stay with their life support systems and drowned, because I don't know of any divers that voluntarily leave their life support systems and go off in search of something apparently more important than the ability to breathe. I don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and read posts before going to town on them too!!!

J

*sigh*

You essentially said that you didn't believe that I saw people doff their rigs to get bugs.

What I said was that I have never once ever seen it personally. When you said that you had, I said that I had a very difficult time believing it, but if that's the case, then maybe you need to get around some safer divers.

If that's that offensive to you, then how offended are you when you are called an "idiot" or a "liar" blatently? I was - should I be upset about it?

That is absolutely as insulting as calling someone a liar and actually worse, given specifics were already mentioned. That's not attacking the argument, that's calling the poster's veracity into question. Big, BIG, insult. So don't get too cuddly with yourself just cos you didn't call anyone a liar directly. The implication was exactly the same.

No, the implication was that "I have a hard time believing that, but if that's the case, then maybe you need to get around some safer divers." I meant what I said. If you want to interpret it differently, then feel free.

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to set you straight.

Lol... Your words remind me of Tortuga's signature line: "You may not agree with everything I say but at the very least you'll come to understand that your differing opinion is wrong."

After all, I've lost most of my ballast and the only thing between me and Mars and fast is your sorry ass

Yeah, and I'm gonna let you whiz right by, 'cause I TOLD you not not to ditch your weight (or your rig) at depth...

 

[Deep South Divers]

The Freedom Plate was never designed to use an STA with 11" center holes. To use a wing you simply sandwich the wing between the rail and the tank and the wing freefloats until you position it exactly where you want it then you snap down the cam bands (2) and the pressure from the cam bands is what holds the unit together. It couldn't be more simple. The chosen wing has to have slots in it to work. The cam bands go all the way through the plate, through the slots in the wing, and around the tank.
With this newest design the rail can be removed if desired and the tank mounted directly on the plate with or without a wing between the tank and plate. The bottom of the latest version has a curve in the bottom of the plate below the crotch strap slot to cradle the tank and center it on the plate for use without the rail. With this method the tank rides very close to the diver. The 5.5" centers for the rail just so happens to be the centers of the verticle cam slots so it seemed like a logical place to put the screws. The screws are meant to hold the rail on only, and nothing is supposed to go between the rail and plate. Again, the rail is not an STA, it's a spacer bracket so the plate will contact your back fully while the tank has slightly more room so it doesn't ride against your butt.

If you get a chance to try it again give me a shout and I'll explain exactly the proper way to set one up. I think you'll like it for unencumbered shoulder movement for underwater work.

That's exactly what we were thinking, and why we really wanted the system to work. Most of our diving is done in a single tank, since most of it is done in low vis, high current at shallow depths. Minimizing is golden - so your plate was very attractive.

I really appreciate the offer for your help. I feel like a real dunce that we didn't know to call you - or that you cared enough to make it work. That's a rarity in this business - I'm sure you know.

Expect a PM when I get back to SC on the 11th. We'll talk on the 12th and do this the right way and take it from there.

I'm really sorry I caused you grief for our stupidity, Eric.

 

[Deep South Divers]

How do you know John Chatterton is a liar? Was anyone else there to see what he did on those penetrations?

Yes. Many people were. You can read all about it in Gary Gentile's book, The Real Saga of the U-869.

I don't know John personally, but I have dived with Richie and know Gary fairly well. John's reputation - and consequently, Richie's - was pretty much the subject of the entire book.

From what I know of Gary, Gary's a classic commercial/wreck diver - a straight shooter who tells it like it is, not tells it like it's convenient.

To me it sounded pretty ballsy, but certainly not impossible, so I tend to believe the guy.

Yeah, and with no other account given to the public, what stood in the way of the lie?

The act of John doffing his rig and pushing it through a hole inside of the wreck of the U-869 never happened. Who would take that sort of unnecessary risk, at great depth, inside a wreck, when there was a large breech in the hull opening to the same room?

In fact, a lot of the stuff reported in Shadow Divers never happened.

It's not that I don't believe John - it's that I believe Gary and the countless divers he names specifically in his book.

For what it's worth, Gary's other books are also truthfully written, so he's got a long history of "telling it like it really was."

I usually dive solo and I quite often get caught in line, usually around my tank valve. I may try for 30 seconds to get free, but many, many times I have had to remove the rig and fix a problem. To me, ditch and don of the rig is an essential skill. Maybe I'm a much less skilled diver than others.

I don't think that's the point that any of us are trying to make.

For what it's worth, I also question the solo diver mentality... But that's another thread for another day.

Why are you "quite often getting caught in line?" I dive around line all day long (usually specifically hired because of an entanglement) and have never once been snagged so much that I've had to doff my rig. True, the entanglement - which is very rare - is almost always on the tank valve... But I've always been able to reach back and clear it in one swoop. I've never once even had to cut it off of me.

I want to be wearing enough lead around my body to separate from my scuba unit and still be able to function underwater. If I am using a heavy steel tank and a thin suit, sometimes I wear no weight belt. If I am diving a very thick suit, sometimes I will add lead to my rig, especially for aluminum tanks.

I'd have to see your rig to understand what you're considering a "heavy steel tank," and have to go through a weighting exercise to understand what you're talking about... But generally heavy steel tanks and thin wetsuits don't mix because they overweight you... Or, looking at it another way... Don't leave you any ditchable weight.

...But that's a generalization based on experience. May or may not apply directly to you. Just seeing something curious in your comments.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yes. Many people were. You can read all about it in Gary Gentile's book, The Real Saga of the U-869.

I don't know John personally, but I have dived with Richie and know Gary fairly well. John's reputation - and consequently, Richie's - was pretty much the subject of the entire book.

From what I know of Gary, Gary's a classic commercial/wreck diver - a straight shooter who tells it like it is, not tells it like it's convenient.



Yeah, and with no other account given to the public, what stood in the way of the lie?

The act of John doffing his rig and pushing it through a hole inside of the wreck of the U-869 never happened. Who would take that sort of unnecessary risk, at great depth, inside a wreck, when there was a large breech in the hull opening to the same room?

In fact, a lot of the stuff reported in Shadow Divers never happened.

It's not that I don't believe John - it's that I believe Gary and the countless divers he names specifically in his book.

For what it's worth, Gary's other books are also truthfully written, so he's got a long history of "telling it like it really was."



I don't think that's the point that any of us are trying to make.

For what it's worth, I also question the solo diver mentality... But that's another thread for another day.

Why are you "quite often getting caught in line?" I dive around line all day long (usually specifically hired because of an entanglement) and have never once been snagged so much that I've had to doff my rig. True, the entanglement - which is very rare - is almost always on the tank valve... But I've always been able to reach back and clear it in one swoop. I've never once even had to cut it off of me.



I'd have to see your rig to understand what you're considering a "heavy steel tank," and have to go through a weighting exercise to understand what you're talking about... But generally heavy steel tanks and thin wetsuits don't mix because they overweight you... Or, looking at it another way... Don't leave you any ditchable weight.

...But that's a generalization based on experience. May or may not apply directly to you. Just seeing something curious in your comments.

Well if you read in a book that John C is liar, then maybe you should say that. But stating that he is a liar without knowing for yourself is also "ballsy". As for you knowing that he didn't take his tank off because it was illogical and there were other options does not make John a liar.

i've seen both of the men talk and both are impressive to me. They both seem to be straight up people from what I can tell, but to be honest, it is disappointing to me if one (or both) are liars. Maybe I should just read the book.

Why do I get caught in line? Maybe I am careless, maybe I am clumsy, maybe because I am often carrying a reel with cave line towing a float and trying to spearfish? I've had a speared fish wrap me up in line, I've swam into line when frantically chasing an escaping lobster, I've swam into fishing line when swimming along a wreck in bad visibility, I've been caught in steel leader, I've been wrapped up in line many times. Removal and replacement of the scuba unit is an essential skill for all divers and especially solo divers.

Funny you should say thin suits and heavy steel tanks don't mix. Aren't you the guy who says a diver can swim a negative rig up? The heaviest steel tank I use is a 149 cu-ft steel, 3500 psi with a pony bottle attached. Incidentally, I did have to swim up a very similar rig once after a total BC failure. Not fun, but doable, for me at the time.

 

[gcbryan]

I get solo diving and I get possibly having to take gear off even though it's never quite come to that for me. I don't understand bug hunting and deep spear fishing.

Just because it doesn't interest me or make sense to me means nothing of course but since I don't see it discussed very often...what is the attraction?

I get that you end up with food but that would probably be cheaper from the grocery store. I also get that it is a sport to you.

What I don't get it doing something where you either take your gear off to craw under something for a lobster or where you are constantly getting entangled in steel leader line all for a fish?

I guess the answer is that it's fun and the fish tastes good but it doesn't seem worth it to me. What am I missing (if anything)?