DIR, s-drills, consistency, and AI computers

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Unless reliability problems are totally solved, I don't think the wrist AI computer will ever replace a direct gauge in the DIR configuration. Watching my husband struggle to get his transmitter and computer to sync has put me quite off the gadgets.

"Don't do" might be a little strong. I am GUE and UTD trained and I occasionally ask my buddies how much gas they have and they ask me sometimes too.

Richard, that's an "oops"; I should have said GUE divers don't show the gauge as part of an S-drill, which was the OP's original premise.

It IS interesting that the DIR setup uses an analog pressure gauge for reasons of reliability, but permits an electronic depth gauge with no backup other than the team. An electronic gauge with a graphic readout like you described, Guy, would probably be the fastest thing to interpret, even better than a needle on a round face. And it would permit programming as you describe, to apportion the gas supply, if the diver so wished (that would come under the category of using equipment to solve a skill issue for DIR, though!)
 
Guy

*Bret Gilliam describes these types eventually coming 'round, saying that watching them come into the store to buy an SPG was identical to watching a teenager buying condoms at a pharmacy for the first time. You know how it goes, "gimme three of these, 2 of them, 6 of this here and oh, yeah, throw in one of those."

Citing Bret Gilliam in the DIR forum is pretty funny, but probably not for reasons you'd realize :D
 
Which is of course why I stated that I would always have a B&G (or at least an hosed or hoseless electronic SPG) on the left side/post, in addition to an AI on the right side/post. Did you think I wouldn't compare them? We members of the Department of Redundancy Department would never countenance such an oversight:shakehead:

Guy
if you're going to be checking both why bother bringing the AI one?
 
Unless reliability problems are totally solved, I don't think the wrist AI computer will ever replace a direct gauge in the DIR configuration. Watching my husband struggle to get his transmitter and computer to sync has put me quite off the gadgets.

And regardless of what happens in the DIR world, it will never _completely_ replace a directly connected gauge for me (mechanical or electronic I'm less adamant about) -- I'll always want one of those in addition to whatever else I use. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pull up my suspenders and buckle my belt:)

What does Peter have? From what I've read the Uwatecs seem to be a lot better than the Suuntos re syncing and losing the signal.


<snip>
It IS interesting that the DIR setup uses an analog pressure gauge for reasons of reliability, but permits an electronic depth gauge with no backup other than the team. An electronic gauge with a graphic readout like you described, Guy, would probably be the fastest thing to interpret, even better than a needle on a round face. And it would permit programming as you describe, to apportion the gas supply, if the diver so wished (that would come under the category of using equipment to solve a skill issue for DIR, though!)

See my previous comments re SPGs vs. J-valves:D

Citing Bret Gilliam in the DIR forum is pretty funny, but probably not for reasons you'd realize :D

Having read a fair amount of the nastiness between Bret, GI3, and those supporting one or the other, I may realize more than you think:wink:, and will take the Fifth on that issue. But it doesn't invalidate the anecdote. OBTW, following on from that thought, I know GUE has been trying to disassociate themselves from "DIR" for a couple of years now, but I just noticed last night that the logo patch on the thigh pocket I just installed now reads just plain "Halcyon Dive Systems" instead of "Halcyon DIR Dive Systems" as on my MC pack (bought used a couple of years ago). How far back did they drop the "DIR" from the logo? They still had it on the gear in the 2008 catalog, the most recent I've seen.

Guy
 
Which is of course why I stated that I would always have a B&G (or at least an hosed or hoseless electronic SPG) on the left side/post, in addition to an AI on the right side/post. Did you think I wouldn't compare them? We members of the Department of Redundancy Department would never countenance such an oversight:shakehead:

Guy

if you're going to be checking both why bother bringing the AI one?

Because I'm only going to compare them a limited number of times (Beach/boat, surface, initial bottom, turn around pressure, start of ascent, maybe one or two more depending on conditions/events), while I'll be checking pressure more frequently than that, at least every five minutes on a more demanding dive. And all of that gets compared with what the gauge in my brain thinks should be going on.

Guy
 
So I wouldn't be too sure that Wrist AI will never be DIR.

You could make the same arguments about flipfins as well. Or one of the $1,000 HUD masks... There's a whole universe of gear out there, and just because some gear gets adopted over time, doesn't mean that all gear not presently adopted will get adopted over time... That is an obvious logical fallacy...
 
So you'll compare them somtimes because there might be a discrepancy, but the other xx number of times in your dive, it doesn't matter? Its good enough, right? If you can't trust the gauge in your brain enough, you might want to put those 'demanding dives' on the backburner a little bit...

Bottom line is that these types of practices aren't DIR for all the reasons myself and others have stated. Its right up there with gauge retractors; just a quick fix (although an expensive quick fix, in your case) for a fundamental skill issue.

And since only a month ago you were a self professed frequent solo diver http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4934769-post11.html, I'd venture a guess that your total understanding of DIR is what you've read on scubaboard. Give us all a break and quit trying to call your style of diving 'DIR', because its not.
 
So you'll compare them somtimes because there might be a discrepancy, but the other xx number of times in your dive, it doesn't matter? Its good enough, right? If you can't trust the gauge in your brain enough, you might want to put those 'demanding dives' on the backburner a little bit...

To me it's a simple question of probabilities. If I never compare it (either with my own or other's gauges) I increase the probability that I don't notice a problem, so I will compare it. But I won't do so all the time, leaving me in no worse shape than if I were using a single SPG (and my brain).

Bottom line is that these types of practices aren't DIR for all the reasons myself and others have stated. Its right up there with gauge retractors; just a quick fix (although an expensive quick fix, in your case) for a fundamental skill issue.

Expensive quick fix? And here I am with a couple of hundred dives using an ex-rental Suunto Favor that was god knows how old which I bought off eBay, along with a mechanical depth gauge that I got for free when a member of my dive club died and his family gave away what dive gear they couldn't sell. I have never looked for the quick fix, and definitely not for the expensive one, although if the only way to get the features I want is expensive, then I don't mind spending the money. I keep my gear for decades, so I never begrudge paying up front for high quality gear that meets my needs, but I'm perfectly happy to use something cheap if its reliable and does what I want.

And since only a month ago you were a self professed frequent solo diver http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4934769-post11.html, I'd venture a guess that your total understanding of DIR is what you've read on scubaboard. Give us all a break and quit trying to call your style of diving 'DIR', because its not.

Please point to a single place on SB or elsewhere where I stated or implied that my style of diving was DIR:confused: I have adopted a Hogarthian rig because it makes sense to me, but to my knowledge I have never once claimed to be DIR. Obviously, when I'm solo diving I am not even attempting to dive DIR. I plan to take Fundies in a couple of months because I think it's excellent training, but that in no way means that I will automatically join the cult, shave my head and start selling flowers in airports. I have talked to, and watched in-water and on video, quite a few local GUE/UTD trained divers, have read JJ's book, and have investigated as much as I can here and elsewhere to see if this was for me. The jury's still out on that, and will remain so until after I take the class.

DIR is a philosophy that emphasises standardization at the expense of optimization; having participated in both team and individual sports over the years I lean toward the individual ones, so have always tended towards optimization over standardization. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and I will make a choice once I have more direct experience of the training as to whether the benefits of the DIR approach outweigh its disadvantages _for me_. I suspect the answer will most likely be 'No', but won't pre-judge things.

Now, when I ask questions or comment here, I do so because this is the best place I know of, short of class (where there may not be time to answer my questions), to explain the reasoning behind what I see as inconsistencies or questionable decisions in the DIR approach (like the lack of unit standardization). If anyone wishes to convince me that their method of doing something is superior, they'll have to do so by the strength of their argument, and not the passion with which they advance it. I was a thinking person long before I became a thinking diver, and I accept very little just because a self-proclaimed authority says it's so, especially when I have contrary experience.

Now, this discussion is in the DIR Forum, not the DIR Practitioners sub-forum, where my (non-DIR) opinions would definitely be out of place. Here seems to me to be the most appropriate place to ask my questions re: the rationale behind DIR procedures and decisions; I also freely state my opinion when it contradicts DIR, and state why. If this is not the appropriate place, my apologies, and I will happily ask them in whichever forum is the appropriate one.

Guy
 
Man this is soooo typical scubaboard. You know we welcome your questions but when you start flinging around statements like "JJ & Casey will be diving AIs next year" and Brett Gillian quotes its pretty obvious where you are coming from. Now many pages later it comes out that you <plan> to take GUE-F in a "couple months".

Seriously you really don't know "standardization vs. optimization" yet. Maybe someday you will, but please don't preach to me how DIR's standardization somehow has a cost via suboptimal diving.
 
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