It IS interesting that the DIR setup uses an analog pressure gauge for reasons of reliability, but permits an electronic depth gauge with no backup other than the team. An electronic gauge with a graphic readout like you described, Guy, would probably be the fastest thing to interpret, even better than a needle on a round face. And it would permit programming as you describe, to apportion the gas supply, if the diver so wished (that would come under the category of using equipment to solve a skill issue for DIR, though!)
Of course, this whole discussion about how to show your buddy your gas pressure ignores the fact that most Wireless AI computers now on the market allow you to monitor your buddy's gas as well as your own (assuming compatible transmitters). The range seems pretty limited now (Uwatec says ~5 ft.), but that's not insoluble: the Navimate GPS/ultrasonic nav. computer that's due to hit the market in May/June claims that its wrist units can communicate data over 100yds, so perhaps a change in frequency is all that's required to boost the range of the pressure transmitters.
Man this is soooo typical scubaboard. You know we welcome your questions but when you start flinging around statements like "JJ & Casey will be diving AIs next year" and Brett Gillian quotes its pretty obvious where you are coming from. Now many pages later it comes out that you <plan> to take GUE-F in a "couple months".
This is getting funny. I'm happy to take ownership of the things I've actually said, such as the Bret Gilliam quotes, but I'd prefer that people not put words in my mouth. First PfcAJ accuses me of claiming to be DIR (still waiting for evidence of that), and now you claim I stated that "JJ and Casey will be diving AIs next year."
How you got that, I have no idea, but you have the same opportunity to provide a cite as he does.
As to the "many pages later", I've made it no secret in many posts in this and other threads that I plan to take Fundies in April. More accurately, I've been <planning> to take Fundies for just under 3 years, but scheduling, lack of the proper equipment and/or money has gotten in the way until now.
I would have taken it in January or February, but those classes were already booked. I wrote I "plan" to take it in April because the dates are still fuzzy, as this will be the instructor's (or instructors', that also seems a bit fuzzy to me) very first class AS instructors, and he/they apparently need to arrange for an evaluator (maybe David Rhea) to come out; I gather our local GUE instructor, Beto Nava, is either not available or not allowed to evaluate someone he's trained (or his significant other).
So, if it makes you feel better, let me re-phrase my statement to make it more emphatic: my buddy and I will be taking the next available local Fundies class, which is tentatively scheduled sometime in mid/late April, but the dates have yet to be firmed up and might well get pushed back. Happy?
Seriously you really don't know "standardization vs. optimization" yet. Maybe someday you will, but please don't preach to me how DIR's standardization somehow has a cost via suboptimal diving.
Standard gas versus optimum gas, standard configuration versus optimum (for the individual) configuration - I'm sure there are others. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. I'm a big believer in standardized signals, less so of standardized equipment for much of the diving I do; I recognize that for a team the advantages are greater. And I wasn't preaching, just pointing out that these are issues with merit on both sides of the argument.
6) The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum.
That was taken from the "Welcome to the new DIR forum" sticky.
AI computers are not DIR. Reasons given. Done. However, here we are on page 6 still talking about it in the DIR forum... I'm all for debating stuff. Take a field trip to the hog forum where I debated SPG hose routing. No mention of DIR because the hog forum isn't the place or the time.
However, you seem to think that AI computers are up for review somehow. Its been reviewed hundreds of times, and still the answer remains: not DIR. At all.
It gets old reading these forums and seeing the same stuff hashed out over and over again, and yet non-DIR folks want to chime in and try to enlighten everyone as to why DIR is sub-par. I could sit here and go through the past 50 or so posts and dissect all of them, but its not worth it. DIR forum is for DIR stuff.
"2) This forum is for a free exchange of ideas concerning DIR, but it is NOT intended to limit any mention of DIR to only this forum." I was asking for detailed reasons behind the decision that AI is not DIR, as ISTM the basic argument against AI is a pretty feeble one. That appears to be within the "answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy." My comments fall within a "free exchange of ideas concerning DIR". I have not given a non-DIR _answer_, just asked for the reasons behind same, stated my reasons why the answers I got didn't seem consistent/persuasive (see my reply to Lamont), and speculated as to whether the answer might change in the future.
This seems to be within the forum's terms, but if the moderator(s) think not, in future I will ask such questions in the Hogarthian forum, even though many of the people who post there aren't DIR (and it was specifically the DIR rationale I was interested in, as stated in the sticky).
Staying out of this as long as I could, I just have to chime in and say that not all of us who dive DIR consider ourselves members of a cult simply because we adopt similar gear configurations and procedures. For me, it's a fantastic way to maximize my fun, safety and peace of mind in the water.
Hi, Kenn, that may be the case for me as well. If I didn't think the training would make me a better, safer diver (whether or not I ultimately adopt DIR), I sure as hell wouldn't be paying for it; I've spent far too much already for useless dive classes.
[Re thinking divers]
To the same effect, my own experience is that people who adopt DIR tend to be exactly as you describe above, far more often than not. I don't think you meant to imply otherwise, but many of us like to think of ourselves as rational, think-first people as well (if you think about it, there really aren't many ways anyone can just stumble across DIR and swallow the whole thing without chewing or working their way around all the grizzle). The number of brain hours most people spend debating, challenging and examining DIR prior to adopting it is pretty darned high, as far as taking a scuba class goes; at least it was for me. My own personal belief is that the average DIR diver has a lot more in common with the fiercely proud, individual, independent diver than with the "typical" scuba diver who straps on fins a few times a year and never thinks twice about the idea that there are different schools of thought when it comes to this thing.
As it happens, all of the local DIR divers I've met and talked or emailed with (you, Beto, Susan, Clinton, David C., Harry, Don and Kathy Dee, just to name a few) fall into the category you describe, as do most of the DIR people here and on other internet forums. And that's why I've enjoyed discussing diving and DIR with them so extensively, because they all can provide cogent reasons for why they made the choice, while allowing that there are other points of view that are also valid.
But there always seems to be a minority within any minority group that considers itself chosen, elect, special, or elite, and who have given up the ability to be objective because they've become zealots; it is that behavior that has given "DIR" such a bad name in the outside diving community that GUE has been doing everything it can to disassociate themselves from the term, and preferably bury it completely. It's people like that I'm referring to as cult members, and unfortunately they tend to be more prevalent (or at least more noticeable) on the 'net.
Also, I've seen enough debates on politics and religion to know that some arguments simply aren't going to be won or lost today, despite the strength of any argument that can be brought to bear.
As a lifelong political independent and agnostic, I reject anyone who claims that there's one (and only one) true path to earthly utopia or enlightenment.
Guy, you're quite right. The DIR approach to diving values standardization over optimization. In my opinion, and the opinion of many others, the benefits of standardization far outweigh the marginal benefit from optimization in most settings, if not all.
Until you have the opportunity to dive as part of a standardized, skilled team, you really won't know on which side of the bar you will eventually fall. Diving as part of a crafted, skilled, standardized team is like dance; one can quickly become addicted to the grace and effortlessness that characterizes such diving. Some people are truly stubbornly individualistic, and for those people, having the freedom to improvise and tinker outweighs the other benefits. I honestly, personally believe that most of those people are not fortunate enough to have a like-minded team with which to dive, but that may be because the system appealed to me from the outset, even though it has taken enormous effort and application to bring my own personal skills to the point where I deserve to be part of such a team.
Lynne, as usual you have managed to state both sides of the issue in a non-confrontational way (something I've never been very good at), and exactly encapsulated why I'm going to take Fundies, as well as my concerns with DIR in general. I've always been one of those stubborn individuals who's happiest when I can modify my gear/techniques to best suit me. I mean, how many people do you know who have insisted that the dealer remove the auto-dimming rear view mirror with integral electronic compass that their new car came with and install a manual mirror, because the tiny light showing that the auto-mirror was working was an annoyance at night, and having to turn the damned thing off every time the car was started was an irritating necessity. And the auto-dimming mirror was also about 1/2" lower than the manual one and blocked that much more of the right forward view when exiting a driveway; and besides, how much work is it to manually dim a mirror anyway? Not that I know anyone like that
But I also know the advantages of the other approach; my most regular dive buddy and I function so well together because we share similar skills, technique, equipment, condition, attitudes and interests. That's why he and I will be taking Fundies together, but I suspect he has the same 'try it first and then decide' attitude I have.
You could make the same arguments about flipfins as well. Or one of the $1,000 HUD masks... There's a whole universe of gear out there, and just because some gear gets adopted over time, doesn't mean that all gear not presently adopted will get adopted over time... That is an obvious logical fallacy...
Ah, flip fins. Well, that's maybe an extreme example, but I suppose someone could find a use for them that would be so brilliant and incredibly efficient that we'll all be wearing them in ten years . . . but I won't hold my breath
As to HUD masks, I asked the one person I know who has one, "So, are you willing to take that thing into the surf at North Monastery?" Having a $90 mask ripped off my face and lost in the breakers there was bad enough; I'd be _really_ upset to lose one that cost me a grand. All that's not to say that I think it's a bad idea, although I dislike Oceanic's display choices, but I'd want any piece of equipment that expensive to be better tethered to me.
Let's take a more relevant example. Wireless AI computers have been described as non-DIR in this thread because they're unnecessary, providing nothing more than convenience and some redundancy, at the cost of possible entanglement hazard, an extra failure point and expense.
As it happens, there's a piece of equipment that every DIR diver I've ever seen uses to which the exact same arguments apply, but I've never seen the slightest sign of any resistance to it (or even any thought about it) among them, although that certainly wasn't the case when it was introduced. The only reason I can think of is that it was already a standardized, useful part of diving at the time DIR was conceptualized, and the founders never even considered the matter. Allow me to quote from an article by Marty Snyderman in the current issue of "Dive Training" magazine, titled
"A Long Way From The Early Days: How Innovation has Transformed the Diving Experience"
About this particular piece of equipment, Marty writes:
"Clearly, [redacted] was a huge step toward making scuba diving easier and safer, and this feature remains state of the art in modern-day designs. That said, it's interesting to note that when first introduced, the use of [redacted] was not without controversy, as detractors feared that
divers would rely too heavily on 'gadgets' and not enough on developing good diving skills."
Gee, that argument has a familiar ring. Let me re-phrase it: the experienced divers were saying that using this piece of equipment was an (all together now)
EQUIPMENT SOLUTION to a SKILLS PROBLEM.
So what was this 'gadget', this 'toy'? Here's the same quote, with the redactions removed:
"Clearly,
push-button, neutral buoyancy control was a huge step toward making scuba diving easier and safer, and this feature remains state of the art in modern-day designs. That said, it's interesting to note that when first introduced, the use of
power inflators was not without controversy, as detractors feared that
divers would rely too heavily on 'gadgets' and not enough on developing good diving skills."
Now that I've brought this slur on your skills to the attention of the SB DIR world, I'm sure many of you will want to rush to your regs, unscrew your LP inflator hoses, plug the port, and fling the offending article into a fire while undergoing an appropriate purification ritual.
I'll wait
Guy (and that's probably all I've got to say on this subject, but I reserve the right to cross-examine the witnesses at a later time
)
