Difference between force and jets

[pescador775]

Here is the short story: the force fin can be made at home by glueing a sandal to the top of an Owen Churchill fin. The Churchill appeared commercially in 1940 and was used by the UDT until the late 1950's at which time they started buying Art Brown's fin. Voit unknowingly began making a "force" when they made mods to the Churchill and called it "Viking". That was in 1957, I think. Since the internet had not been invented Voit suffered from being deprived of an obvious channel for their hype.

 

[deco_martini]

Hello Bob,

Thank you for your reply. I did not know that you and co. developed the first heel support fin; I applaud you for that. Of course this brings up another set of questions©¢fter trying a heel supported fin, why make (if one is the manufacturer) or choose (if one is the consumer) a fin that does not have this feature?

Question deux: I know R&D can be rather expensive, but why such a price difference in FF and say Jet Fins? Is this a function of supply and demand? Is the manufacturing process that much more expensive or is there some other reason that escapes me?

Thank you,

Couv

It always seems to me to be the difference between buying a lowest bid factory gun and buying a more expensive hand fitted model. From what I've read and seen about Bob, he hand trims all the fins himself and makes custom models for people.

In the cheaper gun, you get metal injection molding parts. In the higher end gun you get tool steel. Also, when you buy higher end firearms you also have the ability to talk to the gunsmith.

I don't own a pair of force fins, but Bob strikes me as the fin maker equivalent of a high end 1911 gunsmith. Not everyone can afford an Ed Brown gun. Not everyone can afford tan delta excellerators.

I'm pretty sure OMS could not possibly care less what I think about their fins that I own. They don't even provide a decent sizing chart for them. My Atomic splits I've owned for almost 8 years were sold to me at a local shop. Are they stiff? Are they soft? What color are they? Who knows...

If force fins cost as much as every other fin and even sold a jet style one, I have no doubts their brand would most popular fin by far just because of customer service, feedback reception, etc.

Now pardon me while I figure out what grit of sanding paper or dremel tool I need to fix up the minor flaws in my OMS slipstreams.

 

[meesier42]

Hello Bob,

Thank you for your reply. I did not know that you and co. developed the first heel support fin; I applaud you for that. Of course this brings up another set of questions©¢fter trying a heel supported fin, why make (if one is the manufacturer) or choose (if one is the consumer) a fin that does not have this feature?

Question deux: I know R&D can be rather expensive, but why such a price difference in FF and say Jet Fins? Is this a function of supply and demand? Is the manufacturing process that much more expensive or is there some other reason that escapes me?

Thank you,

Couv

I am sure Bob is going to jump in and further answer your question, but I will try to answer some of it for you and save him some time.

for part 1, I don't know, the only thing I can think of, is that well people have their opinions and they are entitled to them, they can buy whatever they want and the market is more than happy to give it to them, thus us the law of supply and demand, it has nothing to do with quality, function, etc... its purely what people want.

for part 2, as a consumer I don't see the cost of ForceFins being high at all. ForceFin Originals sell right now for $150-$180 and the Pros a little higher. Right in line with most of the competition. The price difference with Jets, is simple, the patent on Jets expired in the 60's are made from <$5 of rubber and cost <$30 to deliver to the store shelves so can be sold for <$70.

For production and R&D, to acheive the desired characteristics, Bob selected materials that cost more and take longer to produce. This material requires that the fins are hand cast and then set in a curing oven for something like 16 hours, with a 1 degree of temp tolerance to properly allow the material to crosslink and bond. obviously, time is money, and these fins take a lot of time.

 

[Couv]

COUV, You will see on the twin Jet a downward extending heel section. Most new fin designs have added this to their fins. Helps in the transfer of power. I wish I could say I was the first to notice this but saw a fin in Italy from the 40's which had a unusual heel strap system which incorporated a lip beyond the back of the fin. The heel section I developed for the Force fin's is encompassed in the total fin design. After making fin's since 1971 I have learned a lot about production methods. I have to run now to work but will give you and SCUBABOARD A detail story on fin making, later in the day. Best Bob

How about incorporating the following into your next fin design:

Vents like the Jet Fins.
Spit fin blade like just about everyone.
Heel support as mentioned before.
Spring straps like all fins should have.
Make each left or right specific.
A special tongue and groove system so one can convert them to a monofin at will.
And just for good measure bring back the Farallon leg brace!

(I'm just being silly; thank you for taking time to answer my questions)

Couv

 

[meesier42]

How about incorporating the following into your next fin design:

Spit fin blade like just about everyone.
Heel support as mentioned before.
Spring straps like all fins should have.

I realize that you are joking, but ForceFin already has all of those features, the Split fin idea was conceptualized by Bob, when he rolled out the Foil Force Fin. Apollo quickly copied it and produced it cheap.

And just for good measure bring back the Farallon leg brace!

The point of the leg brace has to transfer power from your abs, quads, and glutes. The Patented ForceFin footpocket achieves the same functions in a much more elegant form.

Vents like the Jet Fins.
Make each left or right specific.

of course, you already know that's just silly

A special tongue and groove system so one can convert them to a monofin at will.

that would be cool, but I am pretty confident that the comprises that have to be made to make this work, I am willing to bet you would end up with a crappy monofin and a crappy bi-fin.

 

[InTheDrink]

Turns out my buddy has a pair of Force Fins (the ones with the side mounted daggers/blades/winglets - whatever they're called). We're going to swap on next dives and compare notes. Assuming of course my new jets don't drag me to the bottom and he isn't automatically propelled several clicks upstream against the 6 knot current because of their inherent inaffordability, sorry I meant cavitation,....

Thanks again for all the posts, and I'm honoured to get responses from people out there actually making the future, even if they have dodgy avatars .

I'm not sure that the answers were "simple", or "quick" but they've certainly been educational and I will have the chance now to try both. My buddy's are too big for me - any way I mitigate this? Even for temporary testing purposes (e.g. stuff my booties with newspaper?) Testing an ill fitting fin isn't any test at all...

 

[meesier42]

the normal answer to fitting a ForceFin, is to use their comfort insteps, but since your only going to be playing with them short term, that's not really a good solution. try a heavier soled bootie to snug up the fit.


The other thing, your probably going to hate the ForceFins at first, just give them a chance, I normally recommend using them for about 4 dives before switching to something else, it takes a while to break the bad habits that other fins cause.

 

[InTheDrink]

Will give that a try. And will see whether I can get a few dives in them but unlikely given our time constraints.

For the moment though, I'm really looking forward to my Jets arriving. They were dispatched today. Old school perhaps, and maybe we won't get along, but for the moment, I'm like a nervous teenager about to go out on a date with the hottest girl in school. Ok maybe not the hottest, but the most affordable And still hot.

 

[Couv]

The point of the leg brace has to transfer power from your abs, quads, and glutes. The Patented ForceFin footpocket achieves the same functions in a much more elegant form.

Well, you are correct about being more elegant. The Farallon Fin looked like something Captain Ahab would have dived with. However, the brace was designed to take the stress off of the ankle and transfer it to the tibia. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but boy, at $70 :shocked2: a pair, who could afford them? I borrowed a pair from a giant down in the keys, the blades were so huge I was lucky I could propel myself at all.

Couv

 

[Bob Evans]

COUV, Vents in Jet Fins produce a lot of DRAG. Water flows the easy way, vents just strain the water. I think test have proved they do nothing. They look great. Our customers and the Military like our bungee straps. Non-magnetic. My first model 1971 was a tongue and grove fin. Pictures of it are on Force fin YOUTUBE. History of Force fins. Before I go off to my evening swim I like to cover quickly fin cost. First I am a underwater photographer who was unhappy with his JET fins. So I decided to make a better fin which started in 1971 and ended 35 models later in 1981. I was not thinking like a manufacture, being, how cheap can I make a fin. I was thinking as a commercial diver wanting the best materials. My friend Dick Anderson turned me on to Poly-urethanes which were very expensive over rubber made fins, but this stuff had what I wanted to create some thing new. I still think about my underwater camera. I got the best nikon 18mm lens when I could afford it. A camera is a camera but the lens makes a lot difference when you make your living from selling photo's. For me the fin is the same thing, I want the best material. After 30 years now I am the only one who makes a Poly-urethane fin. Why? because no manufacture would dare to go this route due to the high cost. Figure that we heat treat our fin's for 16 hours at 240 temp. That gives us our unreal snap which you can not find in other fins. Most fins are made with in a few minutes out of cheap plastics. Some companies have used a thermal plastic urethane TPU that acts some what like poly-urethane but does not have memory set. It will change it's shape if bent on a hot day. So if you want to get rich making fins go to Commie China and you can make a pair for $3.50. Enough on fin's, off to go swimming with my adjustable Slim fins. Best Bob