Deep Air - Here we go again....

[MXGratefulDiver]

As a NACD (no gue training at all.) diver, I'm a lot more worried about access to eagles nest, cheryl, big/little dismal, dipolar, waynes world, and other deep sites than hurting someones feelings. Maybe if I lived in an area where so many dive sites weren't on public property I wouldn't have such strong feelings about it.

You're entitled to your feelings ... as a very new cave diver I share them, both because I want access to those sites and because I want to be able to exit them safely after the dive.

But let's consider that there's a bigger world out there ... and the majority of divers will never enter a cave. While there may be right and wrong ways of doing things, there are certainly DIFFERENT ways ... and those often are dependent on prevailing conditions and access to resources.

So rather than going down the path of insulting people who do things differently ... or dismissing them with colorful terms they probably don't even understand, I see some benefit in exploring the reasons why those differences exist ... even when you know you won't ever agree with them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ucfdiver]

You're entitled to your feelings ... as a very new cave diver I share them, both because I want access to those sites and because I want to be able to exit them safely after the dive.

But let's consider that there's a bigger world out there ... and the majority of divers will never enter a cave. While there may be right and wrong ways of doing things, there are certainly DIFFERENT ways ... and those often are dependent on prevailing conditions and access to resources.

So rather than going down the path of insulting people who do things differently ... or dismissing them with colorful terms they probably don't even understand, I see some benefit in exploring the reasons why those differences exist ... even when you know you won't ever agree with them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

So how do you suggest arguing with "it's not as safe, and sure 100's have died while doing it, but it's cheaper."

I'm genuinely interested in hearing how you answer that, or reply to someone who in essence is saying what I just said.

 

[boulderjohn]

The training agencies have used analysis of over 500 cave diving deaths and found END's >100-130ft the #4 most common attribute to cave deaths.

When I read my NSS-CDS explanation (I assume it is the same as your reference, since it mentions 570 divers), it says "exceeding the maximum depth for your level of training" is the number 4 cause of fatalities. It adds exceeding the MOD as a part of that problem. In a later expansion, it does recommend that "Equivalent Nitrogen Depth should not exceed 130 feet / 40 meters."

Note that I am not taking a position--I am just trying to make sure we are talking about the same thing and being accurate in our references.

What are the #1 through #3 causes ... and what's being done to address them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

OK, I know you know the answer. What are you getting at?

 

[Blackwood]

or dismissing them with colorful terms they probably don't even understand

I have never associated the term "nickel rocket" with GUE (or diving) and wonder why you are making such a big deal about it.

 

[ucfdiver]

What are the #1 through #3 causes ... and what's being done to address them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

1- Training. Addressing that issue-
Easily Available Training
NACD Training
NSS-CDS Cave Diver Training | Underwater Speleology
Cave | Global Underwater Explorers
NAUI Worldwide Technical Courses

2- Guideline. Line comities have been estabolished as often as reasonably possible. Even some caves not posted about online have goldline in them these days, and a large portion are at least maintaining the white line.

3- 1/3rds. Even OW divers entering the ballroom, paradise, and blue grotto are told this and signs posted.

4- END >100-130ft. This one is hard to monitor. Save a buck or save a life, up to you.

5- Lights. I don't think anyone has died due to lack of lights since the 5 common trends in cave deaths were originally published by Exley/Skiles.

6- Solo. (Depending on who's on the BOD each year, and depending on the agency this comes and goes). I don't think we're doing a very good job as a community emphasizing this one at all.

I have never associated the term "nickel rocket" with GUE (or diving) and wonder why you are making such a big deal about it.

GI3 was one of the first to use the term in the context of diving, who has zero affiliation with GUE other than being an exploration diver for a GUE sponsored project over 10 years ago.

When I read my NSS-CDS explanation (I assume it is the same as your reference, since it mentions 570 divers), it says "exceeding the maximum depth for your level of training" is the number 4 cause of fatalities. It adds exceeding the MOD as a part of that problem. In a later expansion, it does recommend that "Equivalent Nitrogen Depth should not exceed 130 feet / 40 meters."

I'm guessing that recommendation comes from accident analysis. I can't think of any case where a diver has died at depth due to lack of training, other than deep air.

 

[boulderjohn]

4- END >100-130ft. This one is hard to monitor. Save a buck or save a life, up to you.

Could you please provide the quote and reference for this? It does not coincide with my materials, which match your other points precisely.

 

[rjack321]

Been diving in the range of 40-60+m.on air every weekend for the last twenty years.Deeper on bounce dives.I'm trimix certified,but I keep diving in the range of 40-60+m. on air every weekend.Deeper on bounce dives.

On air, you must check your gauge often deeper. On air, you must check your gauge often deeper.

 

[PfcAJ]

Bob, when I get home tonight, I'll remove the dir stuff from my avatar and sig line, and take it out of my profile. I'll add in my naui cert since its more palatable.

But, to answer your question, no, I do not have much experience outside of cave diving. However, I do have the ability to assess accidents and make correlations. This doesn't have anything to do with gue.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So how do you suggest arguing with "it's not as safe, and sure 100's have died while doing it, but it's cheaper."

I'm genuinely interested in hearing how you answer that, or reply to someone who in essence is saying what I just said.

In the several threads we've had on this subject, I haven't really seen "cheaper" given as a serious reason for diving deep air.

I have seen the adaptation arguments ... which I semi-comprehend since humans are very adaptable creatures. However, I look at it more as learning how to cope with the effects ... which is not the same as eliminating them. You are still impaired.

But I personally know several old-timers who still dive deep air. Knowing them, I don't view them as stupid people ... rather an artifact of a different era. But it's tough to tell someone who's done 8 or 9 thousand dives over a three-decade time span that they don't know what they're doing ... especially when that sentiment is coming from someone who's been diving for less than five years, has less than 500 dives, and has only dived in very limited conditions. I don't doubt that you've made a legitimate choice ... the same one I would make ... but I also wouldn't consider myself qualified to sit in judgment of someone who's done dives I haven't ... sometimes hundreds or thousands more than me ... and done them successfully.

Diving's all about making choices. Just as I don't want someone else dictating my choices, I don't want to dictate theirs either.

So I would answer it by saying ... if it works for you, go for it ... that's certainly what I plan to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

On air, you must check your gauge often deeper. On air, you must check your gauge often deeper.

LOL ... that's the FIRST indication I'm narc'd ... gotta check the SPG ... then I gotta check the SPG ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)