Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[lv2dive]

A cavern dive has a total penetration (depth plus distance from entrance) limitation of 130 feet in every agency with which I am familiar. But maybe you can tell me about some different standards from some agency other than PADI, TDI, NSS-CDS, NACD? Or it's possible I've been mis-informed and you can set me straight?

The depth of where they found one of the bodies, suggest they never left the Ballroom, which technically is a cavern dive and not a cave dive as reported.

 

[brnt999]

It looks like he didn't like following the rules.

 

[gianaameri]

The depth of where they found one of the bodies, suggest they never left the Ballroom, which technically is a cavern dive and not a cave dive as reported.

A cavern dive has a total penetration (depth plus distance from entrance) limitation of 130 feet in every agency with which I am familiar. But maybe you can tell me about some different standards from some agency other than PADI, TDI, NSS-CDS, NACD? Or it's possible I've been mis-informed and you can set me straight?

Sorry mate, but the definition of a cavern is that daylight is the primary light. I have been diving EN since 1996 and have NEVER seen any part of the cave once you have dropped through the chimney where the primary light is daylight. Therefore, no "technically" a cavern dive at all.

I'd suggest the body found at the shallower depth was trapped on the roof of the ballroom away from the chimney. The other sounds as though it was partway down the debris mound... again, away from the chimney.

AND who the hell would take gear into a CAVERN, let alone the EN to try it out!????

The problem is that the agencies got it wrong.

You have situations in caves where visibility can go to zero from silting at or from the very entrance of the cave. So, what looks like a "cavern" (by the agency definition) at the beginning of the dive, turns into a "cave" (i.e. no visible daylight) moments later (or by the time you turn the dive to exit).

All that it takes is for more divers to come in while you are in, and by the sheer numbers entering the water (in some caves 8 divers is a crowd) what was a "cavern" turns into a "cave" (i.e. an exit with no visibility).

So, the "cavern" trained diver suddenly finds himself in a "cave" situation.

The agency "cavern" definition "(depth plus distance from entrance) limitation of 130 feet" and/or that "the definition of a cavern is that daylight is the primary light" is misleading to the novice cave diver and to those with little or no cave diving experience.

A cave is a cave is a cave (and there is not such a thing as a cavern).

 

[HIGHwing]

There's no way that water with a hole in the bottom that leads into an overhead is appropriate for OW class. I don't have the patience to go through all the standards, but I beleive a hard bottom is a requirement, and a "hard bottom with a hole" wouldn't qualify.

Please don’t recast a "slightly" out flowing restriction into the drain in the bath tub.

On the other hand, 2 of my 4 OW training dives were done at Vortex Spring. Which coincidentally has a cave system in which people have died. But I don't think my instructor was negligent or subtly encouraged overhead diving.

Vortex Springs has a locked gate. Ben McDaniels aside, you can’t wander off…

"Unfortunately it only takes one badly placed fin kick to dump muck down the entrance tube" and possibly doom all your non-cave trained and equipped friends playing around in the "cavern zone" to the same fate as the two who died yesterday...

While some might try and spin EN's ballroom into a "cavern dive", that's the last thing it should be called or considered.. This isn't Ginnie's ballroom.. Not even close..

The above information that is/was on the EZScuba site is a roadmap to FAIL.. Hard to believe it was posted on the site of a shop that holds itself out as a tech training center / shop..

That was so bold of that business to put on their attitude about it on web.

A cavern dive has a total penetration (depth plus distance from entrance) limitation of 130 feet in every agency with which I am familiar. But maybe you can tell me about some different standards from some agency other than PADI, TDI, NSS-CDS, NACD? Or it's possible I've been mis-informed and you can set me straight?

The standards also assume a restriction in that zone ends cavern and begins the cave. I would argue there is no cavern zone at Eagle’s Nest. (But... That's my personal opinion and not that of a board of directors, etc.)

 

[Superlyte27]

The depth of where they found one of the bodies, suggest they never left the Ballroom, which technically is a cavern dive and not a cave dive as reported.

You've probably never dove eagle's nest then. This week the vis is 50'. So at 127' can you see the entrance if you know where it is? Not with this week's vis.

---------- Post added December 26th, 2013 at 05:58 PM ----------

A cavern dive has a total penetration (depth plus distance from entrance) limitation of 130 feet in every agency with which I am familiar. But maybe you can tell me about some different standards from some agency other than PADI, TDI, NSS-CDS, NACD? Or it's possible I've been mis-informed and you can set me straight?

Similar standards with IANTD also.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Is there any insight into what actually happenned (OOG, lost with no reel, equipment failure, medical issue?)

 

[Superlyte27]

Yes, what actually happened was a moron took his young son to their death because they had no training.

 

[kwinter]

Sorry mate, but the definition of a cavern is that daylight is the primary light. I have been diving EN since 1996 and have NEVER seen any part of the cave once you have dropped through the chimney where the primary light is daylight. Therefore, no "technically" a cavern dive at all.

Technically, you can see daylight if you stay near the breakdown pile at the bottom of the chimney. Once you wander away from that, you're definitely in cave. We had this discussion on CDF about taking cavern trained students.

I'd suggest the body found at the shallower depth was trapped on the roof of the ballroom away from the chimney. The other sounds as though it was partway down the debris mound... again, away from the chimney.

I was struggling to figure out where someone could be found at 60 feet except in the chimney itself. I don't even think the roof of the ballroom is that shallow. But 127 could easily be the top of the breakdown pile. I have it listed as 130.

You've probably never dove eagle's nest then. This week the vis is 50'. So at 127' can you see the entrance if you know where it is? Not with this week's vis.

Vis at the Nest is more variable than any other cave I've been in. But with 50 foot vis, you can certainly see the exit from the bottom of the chimney at 130'. Finding the chimney entrance when the basin is tannic and really screwed up takes a bit more doing. I haven't read anything about these guys staging any gas at the log outside the chimney.

Yes, what actually happened was a moron took his young son to their death because they had no training.

They clearly didn't belong there. But I'm not ready to say the cause of death was lack of training. We don't know what happened. I'm pissed as hell that they were there, but I'm not going to jump on a reason yet.

 

[Captain Bil]

Technically, you can see daylight if you stay near the breakdown pile at the bottom of the chimney. Once you wander away from that, you're definitely in cave. We had this discussion on CDF about taking cavern trained students.

I beg to differ. I have dived there many times with 30' of viz. At the debris cone with 30' viz, no ambient light. At all. With cloud cover, it's worse.

EN should be for full cave with Hypoxic trimix certs and no one else. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum, falls on deaf ears, etc....

Sent from behind a pint of Guinness.

 

[Diver0001]

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Some more off-topic posts have been deleted. People, please. Let me remind you of the special rules for this forum:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sheriff's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) Off topic posts will be removed and off topic comments will be edited.
(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.
(5) No "condolences to the family" here. Please use our Passings Forum for these kinds of messages.
(6) If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, cite the source.
(7) If your post is your hypothesis, theory, or a "possible scenario," identify it as such.
(8) If your post is about legal action that concerns a mishap, use the Scuba Related Court Cases forum.

Please don't make this escalate. We don't have a lot of tools. I don't want to have to choose between locking the thread and locking people out of the entire A&I section. Don't make me make that decision.

---