Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[debajo agua]

Tursiops is correct. There is no requirement for a hard bottom for training dives in any agency I know of. Every day thousands of divers around the world are certified in ocean waters deeper than the maximum allowed depth for their training. It is up to the instructor to make sure the students do not go deeper than allowed.

---------- Post added December 26th, 2013 at 12:49 PM ----------



Yes, they do.

I am unable to find the statistics right now, but I read recently that over the past 4-5 years, nearly half of the people who die in caves were cave certified. People whose understanding of statistics borders on the level commonly called "imbecilic" would argue that means certified divers are just as likely to die in caves as non-certified divers. That would only be true, though, if certified and uncertified divers were going into the caves in equal numbers. It is, however, pretty rare to find uncertified divers who, like you, do not respect the danger of caves. There are no accurate statistics for this, but it would not surprise me to learn that 98% of the people diving in caves are appropriately certified. That means that only a very tiny percentage of certified divers die in caves, while a very high percentage of uncertified divers die in caves.

If you look at the overall death rate in Germany, you will find that the overwhelming majority of them are German citizens. Do you think that proves that it is more dangerous to be a German citizen in Germany than a non-citizen?

I disagree with you. I do all types of diving, and where ever I go, I find many people diving beyond their "certification" level. If you think O/W divers are sticking to the < 60' rule then I think you're mistaken. The same thing applies to wrecks, caverns, etc. Like I said, Ginnie Springs is a great example of where O/W divers enter overhead because they're told "it's okay".

 

[Wookie]

I disagree with you. I do all types of diving, and where ever I go, I find many people diving beyond their "certification" level. If you think O/W divers are sticking to the < 60' rule then I think you're mistaken. Like I said, Ginnie Springs

There isn't a 60 foot rule.

Something is fishy. The kids facebook page shows him in full cave kit in one instance and single tank kit in another. He may not be certified, but he's sure been in the water a lot. The old man's facebook page shows him well into an overhead in a number of photos. These shots were not taken with a happy snappy with built in flash, someone with real camera gear has been taking these guys diving.

His cover photo is copyrighted "Danny Riordan 2008", which may mean nothing at all.....

 

[drrich2]

The criticism that taking OW students to Eagles Nest might insinuate to them that entering the overhead lower section is somehow acceptable got me mulling over the logic. I assume it's along the lines of 'lead me not into temptation' - not encouraging them to dive in an area where an enticing potential danger is immediately at hand.

On the other hand, 2 of my 4 OW training dives were done at Vortex Spring. Which coincidentally has a cave system in which people have died. But I don't think my instructor was negligent or subtly encouraged overhead diving.

As a bit of an aside, during training, I accidentally mistook another diver for my instructor, and nearly followed the guy into a cavern (my instructor noticed and caught me in time to prevent that), so I suppose training around overhead environments in some places can be potentially dangerous.

I feel bad for this family. Yes, what these 2 did was foolish and very dangerous. I've done foolish and dangerous things in my life, too (thankfully not cave diving), so I don't want to throw stones too badly. Just because I have to-date survived my own idiocy doesn't justify slamming them for theirs.

Richard.

 

[MalibuJerry]

I don't know Eagle's Nest. But the caves I know have crystal clear water and they are really deceptive. No one knows what transpired here, but what we know is that they were at a dive site with an entrance to a dangerous cave. Taking the least pejorative view, suppose it looked tempting and they just ducked under to see what was there. Who could resist? Once under getting disoriented, silting out and all of the other things we have training to deal with can come into play and can kill. That is why OW courses should not be done in such places. They ought to be indicating that one day you can be good enough and trained enough to go to the spring to dive.

 

[Matt S.]

It's been a long time since OW class. While I do remember being taught that overhead diving was forbidden without more training, I don't recall how emphatic the material was on that point.

I am not trying to shift blame around, but I do wonder if the certifying agencies should look at the curriculum. Clearly, whatever this guy had been taught... whatever he saw on the signs... it didn't soak in. Perhaps nothing would have, but it doesn't hurt to reassess how this important lesson is taught.

 

[Texas Torpedo]

EZ Scuba dropped their Eagles Nest page... It's still linked on their main site page... Interesting on the timing of this...

Google Cached Version : Eagle's Nest

Thanks for the link, Tegg.

Good grief:

Please Understand, This is NOT INTENDED AS AN OPEN WATER DIVE SITE, BUT.....
The Basin is sometimes very clear and can be enjoyed as an Open Water Dive Site as long as you stay within your cert level.
Under ideal circumstances (viz etc..) this can be a Very Cool cavern dive site.
Unfortunately It only takes one badly placed fin kick to dump muck down the entrance tube.
A silt out down the tube removes the Sunlight requirement for cavern diving. Sooo...
Don't screw it up for the rest of us!

"Unfortunately it only takes one badly placed fin kick to dump muck down the entrance tube" and possibly doom all your non-cave trained and equipped friends playing around in the "cavern zone" to the same fate as the two who died yesterday...

While some might try and spin EN's ballroom into a "cavern dive", that's the last thing it should be called or considered.. This isn't Ginnie's ballroom.. Not even close..

The above information that is/was on the EZScuba site is a roadmap to FAIL.. Hard to believe it was posted on the site of a shop that holds itself out as a tech training center / shop..

 

[xyrandomyx]

It's been a long time since OW class. While I do remember being taught that overhead diving was forbidden without more training, I don't recall how emphatic the material was on that point.

I am not trying to shift blame around, but I do wonder if the certifying agencies should look at the curriculum. Clearly, whatever this guy had been taught... whatever he saw on the signs... it didn't soak in. Perhaps nothing would have, but it doesn't hurt to reassess how this important lesson is taught.

I didn't do my OW class all that long ago and my girlfriend did hers very recently, so it hasn't been long at all since I've looked through the PADI OW book. It pretty much says 'you're gonna die'. In comparison with the rest of the PADI OW book, which covers various risks but avoids overstating or harping on about them and prefers to focus on the enjoyable aspects of diving, the section on overhead environments is very emphatic. I can't recall if there's anything about it on the DVD and, of course, how much it's covered in classes would depend on the instructor. I also have no idea about materials for other agencies.

 

[Matt S.]

...it hasn't been long at all since I've looked through the PADI OW book. It pretty much says 'you're gonna die'.

Interesting, thanks.

That's how it should be, IMHO.

 

[lv2dive]

I feel TERRIBLE for this family. I don't feel what these TWO did was foolish - what the boy did was trust his father. At 15, even if the boy had an OW certification,* he is going to be looking to his father for guidance.

I simply can't reconcile taking a child into EN. Based on some other boards it appears as though the son has been cave diving before. IMHO, 15 is pretty dang young to even think about certifying a kid as a cave diver*... much less going into a cave that is sometimes referred to as the "Mt Everest" of cave dives. My intention is not to throw stones. I understand that Dad's intent was to share an experience he loved, with his son - but this was absolutely the wrong place to do it.

Maybe there is something we are totally missing here but I can't imagine what it is.

Meanwhile - their lives are lost and Christmas day is forever scarred for their loved ones... and several people had to leave their families and face the grim task of the recoveries last night. And all of it, so very unnecessary. :-(


*not that it seems that he was certified as OW much less a cave diver

...I feel bad for this family. Yes, what these 2 did was foolish and very dangerous. I've done foolish and dangerous things in my life, too (thankfully not cave diving), so I don't want to throw stones too badly. Just because I have to-date survived my own idiocy doesn't justify slamming them for theirs.

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

I disagree with you. I do all types of diving, and where ever I go, I find many people diving beyond their "certification" level. If you think O/W divers are sticking to the < 60' rule then I think you're mistaken. The same thing applies to wrecks, caverns, etc. Like I said, Ginnie Springs is a great example of where O/W divers enter overhead because they're told "it's okay".

As Wookie said, there is no 60 foot rule, and lots of people do dive beyond their training to different degrees. Lots of people go into small, sanitized wrecks. Lots of people go into well-lighted caverns. I just went into a cavern in Mexico myself with two friends who are just OW divers--led by a certified cave instructor/guide. You mentioned Ginnie Springs. Lots of people go into the caverns there without cave certification. It is allowed. I was once the first in a line of people exiting through the Devil's Eye there just as a whole pile of OW divers entered the cavern. It was quite a scene.

On the other hand, going into a cave without proper training is a whole different thing. Most people know the difference. I have never seen it happen myself.