Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[rongoodman]

Some instructors would teach 15 yr. old kids cave diving.

But would they teach him the Adv Nitrox, Deco Procedures, Normoxic Trimix, and Hypoxic Trimix classes he would need to accompany those cave classes in order to safely dive the Eagle's Nest?

 

[redacted]

That's not what I said.

People who are reading this and seeing that people with proper training are saying they were diving beyond their training without having any idea what that means. In the beginning of this thread there were posts by someone who frequently posts in cave diving discussions, arguing that the training is not needed. Those posts were deleted by the moderating staff. The two deceased divers obviously did not think it was necessary.

In contrast, people who do have that training know more than the "don't dive beyond your training" mantra. They know what specific things were done that no properly trained diver would do. They know what would have been different if they had had the training they lacked.

---------- Post added December 29th, 2013 at 12:35 PM ----------



Do you have a source for this? All the other information I have encountered said he had open water certification. Of course, in the loosest sense of the term, Master Scuba Diver is an open water certification, so it may not have been meant literally.

Why were those posts deleted? What was the TOS violation?

Certain skills, knowledge, and abilities are required to safely conduct many activities, including diving. These are usually provided by some type of training, including self study and "OJT". While some access to certain aspects of scuba often require certification, many other aspects of scuba may be accessed without certification.

---------- Post added December 29th, 2013 at 02:02 PM ----------

But would they teach him the Adv Nitrox, Deco Procedures, Normoxic Trimix, and Hypoxic Trimix classes he would need to accompany those cave classes in order to safely dive the Eagle's Nest?

Why are any of those classes required to safely dive the ballroom at EN?

 

[rongoodman]

Why are any of those classes required to safely dive the ballroom at EN?

Reports have their max depth at 233'. That sounds like 15/55 to me.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why were those posts deleted? What was the TOS violation?

I didn't do it. I believe the reason was that it led to a back and forth sniping that was clearly off topic and not deemed to be appropriate to this thread. The A&I forum has special rules to keep things on topic.

Certain skills, knowledge, and abilities are required to safely conduct many activities, including diving. These are usually provided by some type of training, including self study and "OJT". While some access to certain aspects of scuba often require certification, many other aspects of scuba may be accessed without certification.

Yep, and the inability for someone who does not have that training to tell the difference between what can be accessed without training and what requires training is the problem.

Why are any of those classes required to safely dive the ballroom at EN?

The two were diving outside of the ballroom, both on this dive and on previous dives.

Even if they stayed within the ballroom, the opening to the ballroom is so small that even on a clear day, it does not let in enough light toy qualify as a cavern. It is a cave.

 

[gianaameri]

But would they teach him the Adv Nitrox, Deco Procedures, Normoxic Trimix, and Hypoxic Trimix classes he would need to accompany those cave classes in order to safely dive the Eagle's Nest?

I can see a 15 yr. old doing a limited/no deco/shallow cave penetration with his Dad (both cave trained), but not the type of dives you describe.

Other Dads might have a different view.

Bear in mind that a 15 yr. old is generally undergoing massive hormonal changes and body growth (mine is right now) and I would not want him doing any mixed gas diving or deco dives.

When he was younger I took my kids to a cave at water level and explained a few things and bits. They loved exploring the dry section. Showed them the clear water and told them it is so clear you'd step a foot in it not seeing it (and it happened)... showed them the line I follow (it leads all the way to the dry outside the water cause the entrance can silt up and go to zero vis.) and my current 15 yr. old then said, "Daddy, give me a mask, I want to follow the line and see where it goes."

15 yrs. old are great fun, but need pulling on the reins sometimes.

 

[redacted]

Reports have their max depth at 233'. That sounds like 15/55 to me.

So, a diver only needs those additional classes to safely dive some of the EN features that lie beyond the Ballroom. I think recommended safety precautions might get more attention if they were presented in a more objective manner.

It is my impression that there are no certification requirements established by any authority for diving EN.

 

[Wookie]

It is my impression that there are no certification requirements established by any authority for diving EN.

Please do not take this in the same direction as "I service my own ScubaPro regulators, including building my own parts, so I should be able to dive Eagle's Nest." Gary, I consider you a friend (as well as a client), but to say anyone can dive EN because there are no laws forbidding it is a stretch even for you. This is a dangerous cave, I know plenty of trimix certified rebreather divers who routinely dive caves who won't dive Eagle's Nest.

To answer your question, no, there are no laws requiring any certification to dive here. I think we can all see the outcome for those uncertified folks.

 

[rongoodman]

So, a diver only needs those additional classes to safely dive some of the EN features that lie beyond the Ballroom. I think recommended safety precautions might get more attention if they were presented in a more objective manner.

Please don't twist what I said. Training in cave diving and hypoxic mixes would be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for deep dives at sites like the Eagle's Nest or the Pit in Mexico. Experience obviously plays a role too.

 

[Texas Torpedo]

It looks like a standard prison designed tattoo gun... Gee, I wonder who taught him to build that? Yup, the same miscreant father that did time and took him to his death.

I wouldn't be giving these guys any credit for understanding deco theory and proper techniques just because they had a proper MOD (or not, if air) on the bottle..
More than likely it was just another piece of their costumes and a "bail out" bottle in case they had trouble.. Obviously, it didn't work regardless of their intended use.

Here is some fresh irony for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVhE9Zorxa8

Look at the second comment from Lavion45
"You are clearly not trained for this. You're not suppose to use your hands, your legs is what does the work. You will over exert yourself. You give us divers bad rep by doing that."

Lavion45 is Dillon Sanchez
You can click through to his name and watch the homemade tattoo gun video. Towards the end of the video there is a clear shot of his doubles and the 130 marked deco bottle his dad is holding in that photo.

Apparently he knew you were supposed to be trained,but I guess he thought his dad "trained" him.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

It's sad that Muti Deco is a free app for the kind of dives these two were doing (if they only had enough money for an air integrated computer that told them what was needed to complete their dive). Unfortunately, I don't know of any free gas management software, unless you count doing the math on a napkin.

Oh well, they're dead, nothing to teach them now.