Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[boulderjohn]

If you guys need to discredit the "you dont know what you dont know" and call it B.S well I feel sorry for you. When you put in the time to have the dives go bad and have the training then you would understand. Some diver with fewer than fifty dives really shouldn't be in this discussion, you really dont know squat about technical diving or advanced diving.

I was already an open water instructor when I started technical diving training and then went on to cave training. I was positively shocked by how much I had to learn and how hard it was for me to learn it. What Kevin said may sound harsh, but it is true.

 

[fjpatrum]

If you guys need to discredit the "you dont know what you dont know" and call it B.S well I feel sorry for you. When you put in the time to have the dives go bad and have the training then you would understand. Some diver with fewer than fifty dives really shouldn't be in this discussion, you really dont know squat about technical diving or advanced diving.

You keep telling yourself that. And while you're at it don't bother to wonder why newbs don't want to listen to you. Experience level has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or don't know based upon research. The fact that people with more experience keep saying that newbs have nothing to contribute to the conversation just makes the situation worse. Get over yourself.

The post was originally about why people choose to do things beyond their training and somehow morphed into an argument about tech training being "too difficult" to figure out for yourself, somehow. How difficult is it, really, to read a book about technical diving and understand the rules? Seriously, I recognize that having the actual skills required will take more experience but the knowledge itself is trivially easy (hey, I've said it three times now, it must be true) to find. It's also trivially easy to understand. It's not rocket science, it's basic physics and simple math. The hard part is the common sense required to know when to dive or not to dive. That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

 

[DCBC]

...Experience level has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or don't know based upon research.

Would you mind explaining this please?

The post was originally about why people choose to do things beyond their training and somehow morphed into an argument about tech training being "too difficult" to figure out for yourself, somehow. How difficult is it, really, to read a book about technical diving and understand the rules? Seriously, I recognize that having the actual skills required will take more experience but the knowledge itself is trivially easy (hey, I've said it three times now, it must be true) to find. It's also trivially easy to understand. It's not rocket science, it's basic physics and simple math. The hard part is the common sense required to know when to dive or not to dive. That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Diving caves, wrecks, deep air, or some decompression dives require more than reading a few books on the topic. The diver has to develop both the awareness, sufficient confidence and the in-water abilities, all of which takes time. Sometimes planning these dives takes more effort than the dive itself and the decisions must be based upon experience.

Why do you suppose people make dives that are beyond their level of training? Perhaps this is a nebulous question. To rephrase it, Why do you suppose people dive beyond their safety envelope (the diving environment in-which they can reasonably expect to operate without exceeding what they believe to be manageable risk, given their level of training and experience)?

 

[Divedoggie]

Some of the arguments that I have read here are mind boggling. If the arguments were taken to heart, why would anyone waste money and time on ANY kind of education when you can get onto the Internet for information or read a few books.
If I really thoroughly read a few books and articles on vasectomy, and then I offered really good deals on vasectomies, would you put your balls into my hands? Funny how people might better understand the risk to their testicles over risk to their lives.

I think people have multiple motivations for making poor decisions in today's world. There have been good examples posted already; here are a few more.

1. They read about other people doing risky things and surviving, so they assume that they can do it.
2. They can post their exploits on Facebook and YouTube.
3. In a culture of instant gratification, taking courses and actually finishing the courses will take too long.
4. Some people think that they are smarter, stronger, faster, or more talented than the average, so the "rules" don't apply to their superior abilities.
5. Some people don't believe in experts. They see themselves as equal or superior.
6. For some reason, they can't see themselves dead.

People would make fewer decisions out of ignorance if they had a stronger foundation of real knowledge.
I agree with much of the sentiment wherein training from day one should clearly differentiate between recreational diving and Tec diving. It should clearly demonstrate why overhead environments are beyond dangerous without proper training. There should be profound discussions on DCI and O2 toxicity. Dive planning, gas planning, and preferential equipment should be discussed.

I have a good friend who is a Tec Instructor, cave diver, rebreather Instructor. When I tell my friends or my students about him, the following analogy seems to work well. "In terms of flight, I'm a commercial
Airline pilot and he is a NASA astronaut."

 

[offroadr1]

You keep telling yourself that. And while you're at it don't bother to wonder why newbs don't want to listen to you. Experience level has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or don't know based upon research. The fact that people with more experience keep saying that newbs have nothing to contribute to the conversation just makes the situation worse. Get over yourself.

The post was originally about why people choose to do things beyond their training and somehow morphed into an argument about tech training being "too difficult" to figure out for yourself, somehow. How difficult is it, really, to read a book about technical diving and understand the rules? Seriously, I recognize that having the actual skills required will take more experience but the knowledge itself is trivially easy (hey, I've said it three times now, it must be true) to find. It's also trivially easy to understand. It's not rocket science, it's basic physics and simple math. The hard part is the common sense required to know when to dive or not to dive. That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

maybe you should read what you have available, then take a course. make a new thread that describe your experience and what you learned or did not learn. i think that would be a more helpful thread.

 

[BDSC]

Some of the arguments that I have read here are mind boggling. If the arguments were taken to heart, why would anyone waste money and time on ANY kind of education when you can get onto the Internet for information or read a few books.

I think that some folks posting on this thread are coming from two different perspectives when it comes to diving and training. I come strictly from the "recreational point of view" because that's what I do.....recreational dives. I'm in the camp of those that believe that you can learn about and safely do night dives, wreck dives, deep dives (and I'm not talking about 200 ft dives here), drift dives, boat dives, perfect your buoyancy, etc. without ever signing up for the class and getting the cert. I know because I have done them all many times without incident and should there be an incident I'm fully confident I would be able to handle myself. Probably the only class I think would be worthwhile taking would be a rescue class and I think it's too bad that isn't covered in a basic OW so a person wouldn't need to pay extra for it.

Then there are those folks looking at this from a "technical diving point of view". No doubt they feel training for what they do is a must if you are to do it "safely" and I agree with them. As a recreational diver, I would be the first to admit I would never take up cave diving thinking I could learn it on my own by just reading a book, watching youtube, or whatever. The stakes are just too high to experiment on my own. Same with really deep diving using all sorts of funky gas mixes. I have no idea about that, don't really care to learn about it, but would never try it without proper training from an instructor or someone equal to that.

I think what happens on threads like this and others is that folks many times will see instructors/DM's post the familiar "don't dive beyond your training" with the implication, or sometimes they say out right, that the only way to get that is by "taking the course". When someone then suggests that a diver can learn all of that (I'm speaking about recreational diving here) from just diving experience over time or diving with a mentor as some folks call it, then you hear the battle cry of "you don't know what you don't know". They will go on and on about how diving with a mentor or more experienced diver may not be such a hot idea because they may not be able to save your ass when the **** hits the fan but an instructor can. Well, tell that to the family of the girl who died in Rawlings this past summer "under the care" of an experienced instructor.

There is certainly nothing wrong with "taking the course". It's one way to learn for many folks who may need a little hand holding for awhile or just like the formal approach to things. Maybe they like the feeling of accomplishment by signing up for and finishing a course. No problem and more power to them. But it's just one way to learn, not the only way, and maybe not even the best way for some.

 

[Hepcat62]

You keep telling yourself that. And while you're at it don't bother to wonder why newbs don't want to listen to you. Experience level has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or don't know based upon research. The fact that people with more experience keep saying that newbs have nothing to contribute to the conversation just makes the situation worse. Get over yourself.

The post was originally about why people choose to do things beyond their training and somehow morphed into an argument about tech training being "too difficult" to figure out for yourself, somehow. How difficult is it, really, to read a book about technical diving and understand the rules? Seriously, I recognize that having the actual skills required will take more experience but the knowledge itself is trivially easy (hey, I've said it three times now, it must be true) to find. It's also trivially easy to understand. It's not rocket science, it's basic physics and simple math. The hard part is the common sense required to know when to dive or not to dive. That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

You're using a very narrow definition of knowledge. Can I explain 1:1 ratio deco to somebody in 10 minutes? Sure, it's really easy (that's the point). Can I teach them how to think about technical diving in 10 minutes? No. More to the point, I don't think it's actually possible to learn how to think about technical diving without having experienced a truly proper clusterf*ck, preferably in a situation where the actual risk was well managed (i.e. a class situation). I've got about 25 staged decompression dives under my belt at this point (I'm a newb in that world), and every dive makes what I DON'T know clearer and clearer... There's a reason my tech classes spent 10 times as long in the water as they did in the classroom - the book knowledge isn't the problem. The practical knowledge and experience is.

I recently took a "pre-cave" course (UTD Overhead Protocols). I know a lot of cave divers, some of whom are doing truly exploration level dives. I've read a lot about cave diving, in books and on the internet. I've researched it just about as much as you can. In the span of one 15 minute class dive, in about 25' of open water, I came to the conclusion that there were situations in cave diving that I, as a human being, am not interested in learning to handle. They are incompatible with my nature. None of these had anything to do with skills, rules, or anything else. If I may say so, I ran line better than anybody in my class (and can even do it while scootering). I know that I can follow line blind, and I know what a horrible feeling it is to find out that some idiot re-used your tie point, or tied into your line unexpectedly (granted, my cold-water gloves didn't help). I know I can handle all of those things. Ultimately though, it was having to sit on a line in pitch black blindness for what I can promise you feels like an eternity, waiting for my teammate to come back after giving me the hold signal, that made it clear to me that cave diving is ultimately not for me.

Good luck learning that type of lesson from a book.

 

[NAM001]

There is a point where you can take one class of basics (ow) and apply some common sence and technically exceede you training level and it is fine. Being an ow and checking out a wreck at 70 ft is no biggy. There is however a wide gap in the ow basics and technical catagory diving that can not justly being done with a basic basic basic set of skills. Many can do this but there are keys to the doing it and those are common sence, self imposed limits and a buddy that has a lower testosterone level than you. Not much of that (common sence) around any more however. There is something about basics that make even rocks think about what they are doing. A new ow will readily admit when handed a rebreather or doubles that they know absolutely nothing about it and set is down and back away from it. And yet that clear distinction of knowledge and new territory does not exist with an ow attempting a deep dive. It just seams to point out that logic is dictating that if you have but a little knowledge in something then go for it and figure it out on the way using your vast basic knowledge. Yes time and experience does allow you to do things beyond the framework of your traiing level. But one has to know where the line is that a formal trainning provided knowledge set can not be pushed beyond, with out further formal training. Examples: I would not do a formal nav course and pay for it to obtain the skills needed. I would use others books to get the information and practice skills on my own. When my efforts fail to get me somewhere i can always hit the surface and get a visual and start over. That technique for any given skill works ok at 30 ft. the bowels of a ship, 140', a cave, deep dive are all an environment that precludes just popping up and asking "what deco do I need" "which way out" and going back down to try again. Yet people go there with no clue of whats there, and what they are potentially getting into. It is not pessible to know the potentials on your own without training , or having your share on close calls to define where that line is that you dont cross. I have in the past asked a couple ( ow and aow) wanting to do a deep dive at a wreck what they would do if they got separated and thier air was too low to stay down. The aow said he would go shallow and look for bubbles to find the other. i said good... you go up and you look and see nothing. With that i heard nothing because they said nothing but they did not think of that.

 

[Mr. Willoughby]

You're using a very narrow definition of knowledge. Can I explain 1:1 ratio deco to somebody in 10 minutes? Sure, it's really easy (that's the point). Can I teach them how to think about technical diving in 10 minutes? No. More to the point, I don't think it's actually possible to learn how to think about technical diving without having experienced a truly proper clusterf*ck, preferably in a situation where the actual risk was well managed (i.e. a class situation). I've got about 25 staged decompression dives under my belt at this point (I'm a newb in that world), and every dive makes what I DON'T know clearer and clearer... There's a reason my tech classes spent 10 times as long in the water as they did in the classroom - the book knowledge isn't the problem. The practical knowledge and experience is.

I recently took a "pre-cave" course (UTD Overhead Protocols). I know a lot of cave divers, some of whom are doing truly exploration level dives. I've read a lot about cave diving, in books and on the internet. I've researched it just about as much as you can. In the span of one 15 minute class dive, in about 25' of open water, I came to the conclusion that there were situations in cave diving that I, as a human being, am not interested in learning to handle. They are incompatible with my nature. None of these had anything to do with skills, rules, or anything else. If I may say so, I ran line better than anybody in my class (and can even do it while scootering). I know that I can follow line blind, and I know what a horrible feeling it is to find out that some idiot re-used your tie point, or tied into your line unexpectedly (granted, my cold-water gloves didn't help). I know I can handle all of those things. Ultimately though, it was having to sit on a line in pitch black blindness for what I can promise you feels like an eternity, waiting for my teammate to come back after giving me the hold signal, that made it clear to me that cave diving is ultimately not for me.

Good luck learning that type of lesson from a book.

Very, very, well said.

Having spent a number of years in the military it was easy to spot the young recruits so full of themselves and certain that they knew everything there was about soldiering just from watching movies and tv shows. Could they actually spot an ambush that was glaringly obvious to the senior guys? Hell no. But once they were opened up on from all sides at once they started to realize that they didn't know what they didn't know and lucky for them they learned it in training and not with real badguys trying to kill them.

Then of course there is the learning that starts all over again should you ever get deployed...

 

[fjpatrum]

Would you mind explaining this please?

Sorry, that was poorly worded. What I meant was that you can get a hell of an education based upon reading and research, without ever having experienced something.

Diving caves, wrecks, deep air, or some decompression dives require more than reading a few books on the topic. The diver has to develop both the awareness, sufficient confidence and the in-water abilities, all of which takes time. Sometimes planning these dives takes more effort than the dive itself and the decisions must be based upon experience.

Why do you suppose people make dives that are beyond their level of training? Perhaps this is a nebulous question. To rephrase it, Why do you suppose people dive beyond their safety envelope (the diving environment in-which they can reasonably expect to operate without exceeding what they believe to be manageable risk, given their level of training and experience)?

Your point about actually performing a dive needing experience is exactly why I said "actually having the skills required will take more experience". As for managing risk, everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. I certainly wouldn't do the dives described in the original post, with or without "proper training" but that's just my risk tolerance at work. Clearly there are others who have a higher risk tolerance than I do as well as people with a lower risk tolerance. That doesn't make me or them wrong or right, just different.

---------- Post added November 26th, 2012 at 05:40 PM ----------

maybe you should read what you have available, then take a course. make a new thread that describe your experience and what you learned or did not learn. i think that would be a more helpful thread.

That probably would be a more helpful thread. After my next course, whatever that ends up being, I'll try to remember to do just that. Thanks for the suggestion. Seriously.