Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

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You keep telling yourself that. And while you're at it don't bother to wonder why newbs don't want to listen to you. Experience level has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or don't know based upon research. The fact that people with more experience keep saying that newbs have nothing to contribute to the conversation just makes the situation worse. Get over yourself.

The post was originally about why people choose to do things beyond their training and somehow morphed into an argument about tech training being "too difficult" to figure out for yourself, somehow. How difficult is it, really, to read a book about technical diving and understand the rules? Seriously, I recognize that having the actual skills required will take more experience but the knowledge itself is trivially easy (hey, I've said it three times now, it must be true) to find. It's also trivially easy to understand. It's not rocket science, it's basic physics and simple math. The hard part is the common sense required to know when to dive or not to dive. That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

It's difficult to explain to someone who lacks experience what that phrase really means ... but it is by no means intended to be condescending. There is a huge difference between knowing something and understanding what it means and how it applies to the dive you're planning to do. Knowledge can be gained through research ... but understanding comes from the practical application of that knowledge. My former mentor would tell me "you need to rethink your approach to that dive" ... which had nothing to do with my knowledge, but rather with how I chose to apply that knowledge in the planning and execution of my dives.

This is not about technical diving, actually ... but about applying yourself to an environment that you're unfamiliar with. As your dives get more aggressive, the consequences of error due to ignorance ... or not really comprehending how to apply your knowledge to specific situations ... become more serious. No, it's not rocket science ... but it's a bit more complex than basic physics and simple math. Physics and math can teach you how to manage the dive when things go right. But they cannot teach you how to deal with the dive when things go wrong ... because they do nothing to help you train your body and brain how to react to stress. Stress management becomes critical when your dives go beyond simple, supervised, reef dives.

I would not say that newbs have nothing to contribute ... I would say, however, that it's not uncommon for most of us to assume we know more than we really do ... or think that we have more skill than we really possess. That's human nature, and applies to most of the things we do. In scuba diving, those assumptions can get you in real big trouble. At 50 dives, most divers are just beginning to comprehend just how inadequate their assumptions are ... regardless of how well-read they might be.

Scuba diving is way more than basic physics and simple math ... there's just too many variables involved for it to be that easy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I've talked about this from a different angle in the past, but I feel that I need to repeat something I said before, with a slightly different slant.

I have always modeled safety as a "cone" in the water that is point down. Think of yourself as safe inside the cone, there you're OK, when you start to drift outside of the cone, you are in trouble and when you are completely outside of the cone ... well, sorry chances are that you're not going to make it.

Skill, as created through training, through experience, and (most importantly) as an interactive term combining both, teaches you two things: how to stay, inside the cone (diving within the limit of your training), but also how to feel when you're a little off center and need to move back. Even as you slowly extend your diving to things that, perhaps, you've not had specific training for, you know how to keep yourself in the center of the cone. Even as you go deeper (figuratively) and the circle scribed by the intersection of the plane of your depth and the cone narrows, you know how to stay close to that middle. You know how far off the middle you are. You know how to get back to the middle. Panic is the result of the almost chaotic jump from inside the cone to somewhere outside the cone, with little or no frame of reference as to how to get back. This is sometimes the result of a single, big, possibly predictable or possibly stochastic event, but more often it is the result of a series of small displacements, each oft unnoticed by itself, each multiplying rather than adding to the one(s) that came before. That is what training and experience teaches you to recognize ... the displacements, before one occurs that results in the aforementioned chaotic jump that results in panic, injury and even death.

What is the difference between say Parker Turner struggling to get to the opening till he passes out and the new diver clawing his way to an embolism because his valve was not open all the way? Are either case just bad luck? Are either case the result of not respecting the limits of their training? I don't really know ... some would say that it is a lack of imagination, while others would say that it is strength of will. If I had to guess I say that Parker's lack of panic comes from the habituation of good habits that in thousands of previous displacements from the center were honed to place him right back at the center of his cone, almost without concern as to where he had been displaced to. His experience was that by thinking slow, taking a deep breath and remembering that even if all his gear failed he had four minutes or so solve his issues. Regretfully this missed being enough by a whisker. On the other hand, the new diver imagined above got into trouble within the limits of his training because his training never provided him (or her) with the skills and confidence required to create a self-righting system.

There are some major trespasses that should never be done. Overhead environs are clearly in this category. For the uninitiated a very small drift off center is massively amplified by the lack of a save refuge immediately above and it is this lack of understanding of the amplification factor that creates the danger, what training does is reduce the level of such amplification.

But the blanket, "never dive beyond your training" is patently foolish when we are talking about, say, a depth extension of ten feet. If divers recognize that ten feet creates an amplification factor of "x," but that 20 feet is not two "x," but rather "x" squared, then they will slowly, methodically and with minimal risk extend their abilities to meet the new challenges they face.

But we don't take the time and energy to teach this concept, or more importantly teach students how to use this concept as part of "self-learning," instead the industry takes the easy way out and issues the rather too general admonition: "Never dive outside the limits of your training." That's right up there with the lack or reality of "just say no" and "abstinence training."
 
This is such a subjective theme, there is not way to arrive to a conclusion that applies to all.

We all learn differently, we all had different starting points. Just those two factors are enough to make this thread go forever without an end.

I personally believe in finding things on my own and bothers me to hear there is a card for "Boat Diving", however, to be diving for x amount of time on 50-80 feet and suddenly decide that tomorrow's dive will be to 200 feet is not reasonable at all. To me it would be stupid even if that happens with 3 instructors circling around me.

Now if on the other hand one decides that wants to go deeper or longer or whatever, and defines a plan to get to that goal with or without traditional classes, that is a totally different picture.

Seems to me the OP was outraged about the huge jump too far beyond their level of training... my only argument to that is how does the OP knows? Does he know for sure these people haven't been progressively skipping a little step at a time, and by the time he saw them their plan has been going for a while?

Sometimes we don't really know what's going on with others, I've lost perspective of what does it mean to have 50 dives, sounds little to me, but it may be a decent number for some. Some divers can get 50 in few weeks, for others it may be a celebration after several years.

One size doesn't fit us all.
 
Maybe dragging out stage one from The Four Stages of Learning is in order:
Unconscious Incompetence
The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognise their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.

Basically, when you walk brand new into something that's far outside your personal realm of experience, you are unable to perceive all facets of your own miserable suckery. It's only after you start to learn a little that you realize just how bad you suck.

Some activities are quite forgiving of suckery, and just let you off with some embarrassment as the price of the miserable failure that can result from a "here, hold my beer and watch this" approach. This particular thread was born of someone's plan to do a cave dive without the training though.
 
Thal, that was a beautiful post -- and further, it gave me a way of looking at my own "transgressions" that explains why I (and others) felt they were reasonable.
 
Great read Tammy some really great dialog.
Good things to consider for all levels of divers.
We can't allow ourselves to ever become complacent or fail to use sober judgement of our personal skill level.
Thal I love the cone illustration.

Read the close calls and the accident reports and it will further make a poignant reminder of just how human we all are!
We train, learn, continue to educate, and use conservatism to manage the risks but even with all of that things can still happen out of our control.
Thal nailed it sometimes no matter how rehearsed or prepared to solve issues it just is not enough.
There are some environments that do not allow for grace!

CamG
 
This particular thread was born of someone's plan to do a cave dive without the training though.
Well, there were the bounce dives too. And they are probably in different categories of recklessness. People seized upon the cave dives because they are a more glaring example.
 
If you guys need to discredit the "you dont know what you dont know" and call it B.S well I feel sorry for you. When you put in the time to have the dives go bad and have the training then you would understand. Some diver with fewer than fifty dives really shouldn't be in this discussion, you really dont know squat about technical diving or advanced diving.

Hum... I've heard it said solo diving is an advanced form of diving and should not be undertaken without formal education because you don't know what you don't know...

I began at about dive #23. To date, about 80% of my dives have been solo and currently almost all are. I dive on a weekly basis. I've never dived a tropical destination so they have all been cold, mostly dark and many many low vis. I've solo in a drysuit, wetsuit, used singles, singles with stages, doubles, sidemount and even inverted cylinders. I've used Hogarthian rigs, Hawaiian packs, jackets, and homemade backpacks, longhose/bungiied regs, PADI style regs, vintage double hoses, J valves, wings, horse collars and no BC. All of them solo. I've been swept by current, entangled in kelp, gone OOA, had lights die, done blue water ascents without a line, negotiated zero vis for extended periods, experienced vertigo, had freeflows and on and on and on...

_______________________________________________________________________

There's a reason I have been able to negotiate that landscape so far and it has a lot to do with the concept that Thal described earlier. I believe in progressive exposure and simplistic procedures. Being competent in CESA's is one, using redundant air sources being another, having preset fallback positions yet another. For everything I do I rarely move outside my cone of safety and when I do I have a firm grasp of the step I need to make in order to jump back into it. I say step because, for me, my comfort level solo lies at being one action away from that safety and when I am outside that cone the mental clock is ticking in regards to my time spent there. I don't doddle.

It probably also has something to do with 20 previous years spent rock, alpine and ice climbing, back country skiing, wilderness trekking and canoeing - much of that also solo.

We all bring different skill sets to diving which help us advance at different paces. One deficit I have is math and mental calculations - I can't do them. Deco diving for me is thus hampered by the fact that I have to actually follow written out plans and cannot even contemplate mentally tracking it. Others, with far less diving experience, would be ten steps ahead of me in that regard: Deco on the fly.. hah hah hah.
 
I've modified it further, planning on updating, but I don't want to with "likes" and comments, so here's my redone version, fixing some rather foolish math errors, if nothing else:

I've talked about this from a different angle in the past, but I feel that I need to repeat something I said before, with a slightly different slant.

I have always modeled safety as a "cone" in the water that is point down. Think of yourself as safe inside the cone. That’s a spot where you're okay. But … when you start to drift of center, and then even outside of the cone, you are may be in for trouble. When you are completely outside of the cone ... well, sorry, chances are increased you're not going to make it. To surive an “off-center” experience you need two things: to know where the center is, relative to your current position and to have the skill to maneuver your way back there. It’s kinda like a virtual type of cave diving, but there is not gold line, the only guide line there is one that you’ve laid by honing your knowledge, skill, and self-control.

Knowledge, skill, and self-control, are created through training, through experience, and (most importantly) as the product of an interactive term combining both. There are two critical things: how to stay inside the cone (diving within the limit of your training), and what it feels like to be a little off center and to need to move back toward (to) the middle. As you slowly extend your diving to things that, perhaps, you've not had specific training for, you know know how to keep yourself in the center of the cone. Even as you go deeper (figuratively) and the circle scribed by the intersection of the plane of your depth and the cone narrows, staying as close to that middle becomes more and more critical. You must know, at all times, how far off the middle you are. You know know, at all times, how to get back to the middle. Panic is the result of the instantaneous chaotic jump from inside the cone to somewhere outside the cone, with little or no frame of reference as to how to get back. This is sometimes the result of a single, big, possibly predictable or possibly stochastic event, but more often it is the result of a series of small displacements, each one oft unnoticed by itself, each multiplying (rather than adding to) the one(s) that came before. That is what training and experience teaches you to recognize ... it is not just the displacements, it is both the vector and the first derivative or even the second derivative that amplifies the aforementioned chaotic jump out into the unkown and results in panic, injury and even death.

What is the difference between say Parker Turner struggling to get to the opening till he passes out and the new diver clawing his way to an embolism because his valve was not open all the way? Is either case just bad luck? Is either case the result of not respecting the limits of training? I don't really know ... some would say that it is a lack of imagination, while others would say that it is strength of will. If I had to guess, I say that Parker's lack of panic comes from the habituation of good habits, habits formed during thousands of previous displacements from the center; habits that were honed so as to place him, almost sub-cortically, right back at the center of his cone, with little or no concern as to where he had been displaced to. His experience was that by thinking slow, taking a deep breath and remembering that even if all his gear failed he had four minutes or so solve his issues. Regretfully this missed being enough by a whisker. On the other hand, the new diver, imagined above, got into trouble within the limits of his training because his training never provided him (or her) with the skills and confidence required to create a self-righting system. He failed to open his valve all the way; he descended and became air starved, this was enough displacement to shove him firmly outside his cone and left him with no way to re-center himself; he lacked the knowledge (seeing his SPG flutter with each breath), the skill (comfort reaching back and turning his air back on) and the self-control to do anything but bolt.

Sure, there are some major trespasses that should never be done. Overhead environs are clearly in this category. In an overhead environ a very small drift off center has a wicked first and second derivative. The lack of a save refuge immediately above massively amplifies the displacement and is this lack of being able to predict this amplification that creates the danger. What training and experience does is reduce this amplification.

But the blanket, "never dive beyond your training" is patently foolish when we are talking about, say, a depth extension of ten feet. If divers recognize that ten feet creates an amplification factor of one plus "X," but that 20 feet is not one plus two "X," but rather one plus "X" squared, then they will slowly, methodically and with minimal risk extend their abilities to meet the new challenges they face.

But currently few instructors the time and energy to teach this concept, or more importantly, to teach students how to use this concept as part of "self-learning," instead the industry takes the easy way out: reductionist rather than holistic standards and reductionist rather than holistic training; backstopped by the rather too general admonition: "Never dive outside the limits of your training." That's right up there with the lack or reality of "just say no" and "abstinence training."
 
Seems to me the OP was outraged about the huge jump too far beyond their level of training... my only argument to that is how does the OP knows? Does he know for sure these people haven't been progressively skipping a little step at a time, and by the time he saw them their plan has been going for a while?

Sometimes we don't really know what's going on with others, I've lost perspective of what does it mean to have 50 dives, sounds little to me, but it may be a decent number for some. Some divers can get 50 in few weeks, for others it may be a celebration after several years.

One size doesn't fit us all.

Not so much as outrage, as wanting to know to help steer those that would take such huge steps, far outside what they are qualified to do, often with absolutely no clue as to what they are attempting, in to realizing why the proper routes to their goals are available. As I have stated a few times here, I did it & was very lucky. I also stated what went on in MY mind. Thal's explanation was wonderful. Yes most of these excursions are out of simple human nature. Mine was primarily curiosity & peer pressure. Did it make it any safer? Or the decision to make the dive right? No, it did not.

Yes, it is subjective,.... to a point. Where that point is, I am discovering, is individual, but there is a point for everyone of us in which we can go beyond the point of no return. The only deciding factor then, is luck. I am discovering that the training for such dives takes away the "luck" & replaces it with knowledge & skills to deal with most anything that may go wrong. "Murphy", is a constant companion. Yes, as some have emphatically suggested some may be gathered by reading, videos & such,... but the actual skills comes from practicing such skills in (hopefully) a controlled, safe manner with someone knowledgeable (usually an instructor) in the field, to point out improvements that need to be made.

I would say in my case,... hind sight is truly 20/20. My mistake & the training I received afterwards has helped me to better realize where my limitations are.
 
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