Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

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Not so much as outrage, as wanting to know to help steer those that would take such huge steps, far outside what they are qualified to do, often with absolutely no clue as to what they are attempting, in to realizing why the proper routes to their goals are available. .

For a start, rather than telling OW divers that they are limited to 60 ft and must take a deep diver or an AOW course to go deeper, talk a bit about the idea that once they have some experience and comfort above 60 ft, they might extend their depth limits in small increments and, in time, safely plan and conduct dives to the recreational limit of 130 ft.

Although I can see where your training agency might push back on such a concept. Yet they do require OW training to address deco and narcosis.
 
I've talked about this from a different angle in the past, but I feel that I need to repeat something I said before, with a slightly different slant.

I have always modeled safety as a "cone" in the water that is point down. Think of yourself as safe inside the cone, there you're OK, when you start to drift outside of the cone, you are in trouble and when you are completely outside of the cone ... well, sorry chances are that you're not going to make it.

Skill, as created through training, through experience, and (most importantly) as an interactive term combining both, teaches you two things: how to stay, inside the cone (diving within the limit of your training), but also how to feel when you're a little off center and need to move back. Even as you slowly extend your diving to things that, perhaps, you've not had specific training for, you know how to keep yourself in the center of the cone. Even as you go deeper (figuratively) and the circle scribed by the intersection of the plane of your depth and the cone narrows, you know how to stay close to that middle. You know how far off the middle you are. You know how to get back to the middle. Panic is the result of the almost chaotic jump from inside the cone to somewhere outside the cone, with little or no frame of reference as to how to get back. This is sometimes the result of a single, big, possibly predictable or possibly stochastic event, but more often it is the result of a series of small displacements, each oft unnoticed by itself, each multiplying rather than adding to the one(s) that came before. That is what training and experience teaches you to recognize ... the displacements, before one occurs that results in the aforementioned chaotic jump that results in panic, injury and even death.

What is the difference between say Parker Turner struggling to get to the opening till he passes out and the new diver clawing his way to an embolism because his valve was not open all the way? Are either case just bad luck? Are either case the result of not respecting the limits of their training? I don't really know ... some would say that it is a lack of imagination, while others would say that it is strength of will. If I had to guess I say that Parker's lack of panic comes from the habituation of good habits that in thousands of previous displacements from the center were honed to place him right back at the center of his cone, almost without concern as to where he had been displaced to. His experience was that by thinking slow, taking a deep breath and remembering that even if all his gear failed he had four minutes or so solve his issues. Regretfully this missed being enough by a whisker. On the other hand, the new diver imagined above got into trouble within the limits of his training because his training never provided him (or her) with the skills and confidence required to create a self-righting system.

There are some major trespasses that should never be done. Overhead environs are clearly in this category. For the uninitiated a very small drift off center is massively amplified by the lack of a save refuge immediately above and it is this lack of understanding of the amplification factor that creates the danger, what training does is reduce the level of such amplification.

But the blanket, "never dive beyond your training" is patently foolish when we are talking about, say, a depth extension of ten feet. If divers recognize that ten feet creates an amplification factor of "x," but that 20 feet is not two "x," but rather "x" squared, then they will slowly, methodically and with minimal risk extend their abilities to meet the new challenges they face.

But we don't take the time and energy to teach this concept, or more importantly teach students how to use this concept as part of "self-learning," instead the industry takes the easy way out and issues the rather too general admonition: "Never dive outside the limits of your training." That's right up there with the lack or reality of "just say no" and "abstinence training."



Very ironic. I just came back from another public speaking class last week and they used the cone anology in the seminar. They also used key words such as training, comfort zone, practice and the almighty word "panic". Maybe I should not do anymore teaching and just say no.
 
For a start, rather than telling OW divers that they are limited to 60 ft and must take a deep diver or an AOW course to go deeper, talk a bit about the idea that once they have some experience and comfort above 60 ft, they might extend their depth limits in small increments and, in time, safely plan and conduct dives to the recreational limit of 130 ft.

Although I can see where your training agency might push back on such a concept. Yet they do require OW training to address deco and narcosis.

I don't tell my students that, never have. I tell them they are qualified to safely dive to depths of 60 ft or whatever the guidelines for that level is. I also do mention that yes, they can go deeper as there are no "scuba police" to monitor them,.... but then also caution them that it may not be a good idea without additional training because of additional risks.
 
The range of what it means to dive beyond one's training applies similarly to many activities, and one has to use some common sense. Here are some examples:

Driving: Everyone who drives 5 mph beyond the speed limit is exceeding training. Lots of people do it without incident. That is different from Indy car driving.

Skiing: As an avid skier, I saw a whole bunch of people skiing the black diamond slopes who should not be there. That is not the same as going off the cliffs you see every year in a Warren Miller film.

An OW diver going to 100 feet or going through a routine Cozumel swim through is not the same thing as going into the Diepolder system. And yes, I once heard someone who had no cave training whatsoever talk about sneaking into Diepolder II. (He is now cave trained and knows better.)
 
I don't tell my students that, never have. I tell them they are qualified to safely dive to depths of 60 ft or whatever the guidelines for that level is. I also do mention that yes, they can go deeper as there are no "scuba police" to monitor them,.... but then also caution them that it may not be a good idea without additional training because of additional risks.

Well, that kind of training may be contributing to the problem. You tell them they have a 60 ft depth limit. You tell them there are no scuba police so they can go deeper. I'm sure you also tell them the recreational diving limit of 130 ft. And you encouraged them to get more training to exceed 60 ft. But you did not tell them how they can control risks while they exceed 60 ft without more training. Do you not see a problem there?
 
Well, that kind of training may be contributing to the problem. You tell them they have a 60 ft depth limit. You tell them there are no scuba police so they can go deeper. I'm sure you also tell them the recreational diving limit of 130 ft. And you encouraged them to get more training to exceed 60 ft. But you did not tell them how they can control risks while they exceed 60 ft without more training. Do you not see a problem there?

Where do I say "limit"? I say they are QUALIFIED to SAFELY dive to 60 ft. No where do I say "limit/ limited". Yes I do tell them that 130 is the recreational maximum. It is. Where am I telling them wrong? It is the accepted depth agreed upon by all agencies. Yes, I will always encourage ANY diver to get more training ANY day to go further. Knowledge is power,... power to know the specific risks they are undertaking & to learn in a safer more controlled environment. The students are taking an Open Water Diver class, not a deep diving class. Sounds like a smart thing, not a problem to me. Before you get into "you instructors just want $",... keep in mind,... I don't even break even teaching 98% of the time.

Where is the problem YOU see?
 
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Having digested this lengthy yet very informative thread, I will say this. Going past 60 feet with an open water certification is not daredevil. Neither is night diving without a specialty class, or boat diving without that class. neither is using an underwater camera without an underwater photography class. But there are line that should not be crossed. No one should exceed recreational limits without being properly trained for the dive they want to do. Decompression diving requires proper knowledge and preparation from some where, and should never be "self taught." Credentials are not the same as competence. My take on the subject is simply this: doing a dive you are not competent to do due to lack of training, experience, and/or supervision, is not only dangerous, it is stupid. My wife, an open water diver, has over 100 dives deeper than 100 feet. She has dozens of night dives, drift dives, and wreck dives (without penetration unless it was akin to the Hilma Hooke in Bonaire) At 60 she is a terrific RECREATIONAL DIVER. She also only dives with me, a very experienced and currently credentialed and insured dive pro. Every diver should dive within their competence and limitations. If you want to stretch your competence, do it with someone who knows what they are doing. , under conditions that minimize risk. That kind of sounds like training, and it is.
divemasterDennis
 
Where do I say "limit"? I say they are QUALIFIED to SAFELY dive to 60 ft.

What does that mean? It's nonsensical. Qualified to dive safely - how do you qualify someone to dive safely. To dive safely is a personal decision regarding your application of knowledge and skill.

If you mean trained to dive safely I would counted that I have seen new divers who took the course, had a card, and could not even put their gear together, let alone dive safely; unless we now accept being completely dependent upon another, more experienced diver as diving safely.
They were exposed to the basic skills to dive safely, may have demonstrated those skills once in a controlled setting, but they never developed the competency to perform those skills in the field unsupervised.

At what stage in the training/evaluation process were they "qualified" to dive safely to 60' because to me, that would mean demonstrating the ability to plan and execute every aspect of a 60' dive without an instructor doing anything other than observing. My final OW dive certainly wasn't structured like that. I just showed up and did what I was told.

I didn't really start diving safely until I began solo diving and taking responsibility for every aspect of my dive. Seems paradoxical but for me it was true. Until then I was always compromising some part of my plan/actions by defaulting to another, no matter how large or small that default was.
 
What does that mean? It's nonsensical. Qualified to dive safely - how do you qualify someone to dive safely. To dive safely is a personal decision regarding your application of knowledge and skill.

If you mean trained to dive safely I would counted that I have seen new divers who took the course, had a card, and could not even put their gear together, let alone dive safely; unless we now accept being completely dependent upon another, more experienced diver as diving safely.
They were exposed to the basic skills to dive safely, may have demonstrated those skills once in a controlled setting, but they never developed the competency to perform those skills in the field unsupervised.

At what stage in the training/evaluation process were they "qualified" to dive safely to 60' because to me, that would mean demonstrating the ability to plan and execute every aspect of a 60' dive without an instructor doing anything other than observing. My final OW dive certainly wasn't structured like that. I just showed up and did what I was told.

I didn't really start diving safely until I began solo diving and taking responsibility for every aspect of my dive. Seems paradoxical but for me it was true. Until then I was always compromising some part of my plan/actions by defaulting to another, no matter how large or small that default was.
Qualified to dive safely? There is no such thing. "Safe" means "without risk." Every diver I have ever trained could, with slight risk, be depended upon to dive in the environment in which they were trained with a similarly trained diver to a depth to 30 feet. But remember, that's with 100 hrs of training and at least 12 open water dives. The current situation in the recreational world is, IMHO, as you describe it. There is great confusion between doing something once or twice and being able to do it under stress, with near perfect precision, each and every time.
 
Where do I say "limit"? I say they are QUALIFIED to SAFELY dive to 60 ft. No where do I say "limit/ limited". Yes I do tell them that 130 is the recreational maximum. It is. Where am I telling them wrong? It is the accepted depth agreed upon by all agencies. Yes, I will always encourage ANY diver to get more training ANY day to go further. Knowledge is power,... power to know the specific risks they are undertaking & to learn in a safer more controlled environment. The students are taking an Open Water Diver class, not a deep diving class. Sounds like a smart thing, not a problem to me. Before you get into "you instructors just want $",... keep in mind,... I don't even break even teaching 98% of the time.

Where is the problem YOU see?

The problem I see is you tell them they could dive to 130 feet but then only tell them about one safe way (more formal training) to do it rather than giving them other safe alternatives and contrasting those by addressing unsafe approaches.

Somehow I doubt very much that you lose money in 98% of your classes. I put that claim right up with the LDS claim that they lose money filling customer's tanks. It is just not credible but the smoke and mirrors accounting scheme supporting such claims are usually entertaining.

But I do believe that you, and many others, are not in it for the money. There are other forms of gratification that make you want to continue teaching scuba.
 
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