FM1520
Contributor
No, the Ruby E nor the Yukon require an advance cert.
Contradictions for AOW, deep diver, and just diving
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No, the Ruby E nor the Yukon require an advance cert.
The Yukon is not to be taken lightly, nor should the Ruby E. Although you moor on the wrecks, once you leave the downlines you are on your own. If you don't get back to the anchor line, can you both do a blue water ascent with no visual reference? There can be current, and the water temp is typically several degrees colder than other local areas (low 50's is common). Viz can be a real challenge at times, and on an overcast day can be quite dark. Gas management is a must. As other have mentioned, there have been fatalities at both sites involving experienced divers.
Here's a shot on the Yukon from a year or so ago. Note that to the diver's left (your right) and just below him what appears to be just another spot of backscatter is actually a dive light. This was a daytime dive. I am only 8-10 ft from the diver.
Don't be in a rush. There are several spots on the coast to see nudie's. Make this dive once you are more prepared and experienced.
Here's a shot on the Yukon from a year or so ago. Note that to the diver's left (your right) and just below him what appears to be just another spot of backscatter is actually a dive light. This was a daytime dive. I am only 8-10 ft from the diver.
Don't be in a rush. There are several spots on the coast to see nudie's. Make this dive once you are more prepared and experienced.
I agree with the majority view here- not too much too soon. Not just depth, but water temperature, visibility, and other conditions define an advanced dive. My first dive after certification was to 80 feet, in 80 degree water, 100 feet of viz, and no current, in a small group, led by a local DM. It was not an "advanced" dive. As I grew in experience and training, I was the "senior" diver and dive leader. The AOW class is a good idea, not a necessity. My wife is an open water diver with hundreds of dives, dozens over 100 feet, all buddied with me ( an active dive pro) and at graduated levels of difficulty over time. Growth through experience is not done by giant leaps, but by sequential steps. I think you should listen to the responders familiar with your proposed site.
DivemasterDennis
DivemasterDennis
DivemasterDennis
DivemasterDennis
I will try first to answer what I believe to be your specific question, contained in the last paragraph of your post.
Based on the comments of others familiar with the wreck, and the description of conditions, I would also echo the 'go slow' and/ or 'find an alternative site for nudibranchs for the present' comments. The two of you might dive both wrecks tomorrow, have a great experience, and wonder what all the fuss was about. But, you might dive in a strong current, get separated because of the low viz, one of you panic and bolt to the surface, etc., and the experience would not be great. Instead, it would be reasonable to also set a goal - to dive those sites within the next 6 months, after gaining experience, training and a comfort level for the conditions (cold, low viz, currents).
Very little in dive training is 'absolutely necessary', notwithstanding our rants here on SB that might suggest otherwise. So, I will say AOW for your daughter is 'a good idea' before tackling either / both sites. In fact, I would say it is a very good idea, and you should listen to the voice coming from the 'conservative side'. In fairness to her, I have no idea how good a diver she is (or you are, for that matter), I don't know how deep she has been before, in what kind of conditions she has dove before, etc. So, it could be that she is a dive prodigy and is ready for even more challenging dives. But, for the purpose of this response, I will presume that is not the case (and pre-emptively apologize if it is.)
Based on the comments of others familiar with the wreck, and the description of conditions, I would also echo the 'go slow' and/ or 'find an alternative site for nudibranchs for the present' comments. The two of you might dive both wrecks tomorrow, have a great experience, and wonder what all the fuss was about. But, you might dive in a strong current, get separated because of the low viz, one of you panic and bolt to the surface, etc., and the experience would not be great. Instead, it would be reasonable to also set a goal - to dive those sites within the next 6 months, after gaining experience, training and a comfort level for the conditions (cold, low viz, currents).
Exactly. So, why not develop, as part of the goal, a plan to make X number of dives over the next 6 months, with increasing depth / more challenging conditions, to get ready to dive both sites next summer? SLOW doesn't have to mean that you work up to it over two years. To me, it means gaining experience incrementally, so that each new dive presents an additional level of difficulty - not unlike playing Tetris.
And, there are (unfortunately) more than a few examples of that approach (although the Deep Adventure Dive hasn't involved a timed task for the past several years - it is now color recognition, and timed task has been moved to a later Deep Diver specialty dive). But, it has also 'been stated here on SB numerous times' that you can have a very good training experience in AOW with the right instructor / course content.
GOOD! That is actually an important part of what the Deep Adevnture Dive is all about. You gain experience, and confidence, through a structured dive to depth.
Go find the most experienced instructor you can in San Diego area. Both you and daughter meet with him/her. Discuss your joint diving goals. Then evaluate if you own the required equipment for the environments. Then put that all together and get the training you need. You can never go wrong with GOOD training but you will waste your time with weak training. You also need the right gear. It's a complete investment.
If she wanted to play tennis or field hockey or motocross you would get her the best you could (most parents will) DIVING is the one activity if done properly will be a LIFETIME activity.
Don't sweat the depth, or the conditions, or blue water ascents, or any of that until such time as you have done the training where YOU can evaluate when or when not to dive.
As to PADI, SDI, NAUI, SSI, GUE, UDT, ABC, 123 etc for agencies remember this. A training company is a book publisher, it is the instructor who uses materials and their experience to train you. Pick the instructor the rest comes easily.
Cheers
If she wanted to play tennis or field hockey or motocross you would get her the best you could (most parents will) DIVING is the one activity if done properly will be a LIFETIME activity.
Don't sweat the depth, or the conditions, or blue water ascents, or any of that until such time as you have done the training where YOU can evaluate when or when not to dive.
As to PADI, SDI, NAUI, SSI, GUE, UDT, ABC, 123 etc for agencies remember this. A training company is a book publisher, it is the instructor who uses materials and their experience to train you. Pick the instructor the rest comes easily.
Cheers
Agree with Joel on this big time. Forget about agency. If you find an instructor that teaches the AOW to the agency standards run away as fast as you can. Check out Bob Bailey's (NW Grateful Diver) class description or PM me for my course outline then compare it with who you choose to take her AOW with.
Color comparison is a bullcrap task that could be gone over in the classroom and is negated anyway on many deep dives as the light you carry will bring out the true colors. It's waste of time. Locks, addition problems, writing one's name backwards to check for narcosis? Also BS.
Find an instructor that uses actual dive related tasks to check. I have students run a line at 90-100 feet and reel it back up while managing a light and maintaining proper buddy position. Then pull an air share as we start our ascent. It makes them focus on their diving. They need to have situational awareness. And before taking her on deep dives in cold water, with the possibility of current forget the AOW altogether. Both of you take a rescue class before doing any of those types of dives. All you need is your OW cert and ten dives with some agencies. Ones that make you take other classes first are nuts.
Color comparison is a bullcrap task that could be gone over in the classroom and is negated anyway on many deep dives as the light you carry will bring out the true colors. It's waste of time. Locks, addition problems, writing one's name backwards to check for narcosis? Also BS.
Find an instructor that uses actual dive related tasks to check. I have students run a line at 90-100 feet and reel it back up while managing a light and maintaining proper buddy position. Then pull an air share as we start our ascent. It makes them focus on their diving. They need to have situational awareness. And before taking her on deep dives in cold water, with the possibility of current forget the AOW altogether. Both of you take a rescue class before doing any of those types of dives. All you need is your OW cert and ten dives with some agencies. Ones that make you take other classes first are nuts.
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While I agree with your title regarding some contradictions, I also agree with the consensus of posts. Take it slowly.
I don't know the sites. If you follow some of the advice given and feel comfortable with diving the sites yourself perhaps somewhere down the line you could dive them with someone experienced with the sites before thinking of taking your daughter?
I don't know the sites. If you follow some of the advice given and feel comfortable with diving the sites yourself perhaps somewhere down the line you could dive them with someone experienced with the sites before thinking of taking your daughter?
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I'm only a periodic visitor to San Diego but would suggest there are significant differences between the Ruby E and the Yukon. Frequent divers to these locations may wish to differ.
The Ruby E is an entirely upright wreck. It is a US Coast Guard Cutter of only 165 feet in length. There may be as many a two balls, bow and stern, but I have only encountered a single stern ball in my 6 dives. The water may be cold in the low 50s and the visibility may be poor, but it is nearly impossible to become disoriented on the Ruby E. My max depths have been 79-87 ft (the sand). This is a beautifully encrusted wreck, well worth the dive. Depending on the circumstances, this is a beginner, intermediate dive.
The Yukon is an entirely different dive. This is a 366 foot Canadien Destoyer Escort that lays on its port side and can be quite disorienting. I have visited when there were either 2 or 3 balls, forward gun turret, radio tower, +/- stern. The visibility and light changes seem much more dramatic than the Ruby E. I can easily envision an inexperienced diver missing the appropriate ascent line. Max depths are signigicantly greater, mine have been 95-107 feet with concommitant gas management and deco considerations. I'm glad I have 13 dives on the wreck and am very familiar with the topography.The swim through of the entire ship, 1-2 decks below the bow porpoise cut outs, is absolutely dazzling. This, in general, is an advanced dive. I'd be comfortable taking my son or daughter here, but they are both quite skillful and experienced divers.
For less experinced divers, the Ruby E could be combined with, or separate dives could occur at El Rey, NOSC Tower, kelp forests, or the Coronados. I've had good luck viewing nudibranchs at all.
Good diving, Craig
The Ruby E is an entirely upright wreck. It is a US Coast Guard Cutter of only 165 feet in length. There may be as many a two balls, bow and stern, but I have only encountered a single stern ball in my 6 dives. The water may be cold in the low 50s and the visibility may be poor, but it is nearly impossible to become disoriented on the Ruby E. My max depths have been 79-87 ft (the sand). This is a beautifully encrusted wreck, well worth the dive. Depending on the circumstances, this is a beginner, intermediate dive.
The Yukon is an entirely different dive. This is a 366 foot Canadien Destoyer Escort that lays on its port side and can be quite disorienting. I have visited when there were either 2 or 3 balls, forward gun turret, radio tower, +/- stern. The visibility and light changes seem much more dramatic than the Ruby E. I can easily envision an inexperienced diver missing the appropriate ascent line. Max depths are signigicantly greater, mine have been 95-107 feet with concommitant gas management and deco considerations. I'm glad I have 13 dives on the wreck and am very familiar with the topography.The swim through of the entire ship, 1-2 decks below the bow porpoise cut outs, is absolutely dazzling. This, in general, is an advanced dive. I'd be comfortable taking my son or daughter here, but they are both quite skillful and experienced divers.
For less experinced divers, the Ruby E could be combined with, or separate dives could occur at El Rey, NOSC Tower, kelp forests, or the Coronados. I've had good luck viewing nudibranchs at all.
Good diving, Craig
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freewillie
Contributor
Thanks to all for taking the time to respond. I was actually out this morning in Laguna Beach with my daughter and my adult nephew breaking in new Christmas presents!
I actually hit 50 dives today! Good basic training thanks to a very good instructor. Had a minor mishap with a slipping weight belt. We actually had to remove and replace the belt at the surface. It was nice looking back that it was like riding a bike, hadn't done it for a while but was able to handle it no problems.
Here on Scubaboard there have been many, many post that PADI in particular is just a money grab and the best way to get "experience" is to just go out and dive. Then we keep saying what an idiot the diver was for diving beyond his/her experience and training. It's almost like posters want their cake and eat it too.
I've been on the Yukon and Ruby E before. Did my AOW deep dive and wreck dive certification on the same charter. 2 dives Yukon, 1 dive on the Ruby E. While conditions were great for my dive with over 20 feet viz, the comments were previous week viz was like pea soup, less than 10 ft. It was also very cold but we didn't have that much surge. Ironically the dive can be no problem to you better be a very good diver with lots of experience depending on the day and conditions.
As for my daughter, she's actually pretty good and very cautious with now 16 dives under her belt. She's asked for and will be signing up for AOW certification for her birthday in April. She won't want to try something that deep without proper training/classes first. And she at least needs to know how to use her compass better. We were in only 20 ft this morning but she didn't know the compass reading home. Good thing she was with her dad.
Personally, I felt more comfortable on my first dive to 100 ft with my instructor. She will at least have the same chance.
I actually hit 50 dives today! Good basic training thanks to a very good instructor. Had a minor mishap with a slipping weight belt. We actually had to remove and replace the belt at the surface. It was nice looking back that it was like riding a bike, hadn't done it for a while but was able to handle it no problems.
Here on Scubaboard there have been many, many post that PADI in particular is just a money grab and the best way to get "experience" is to just go out and dive. Then we keep saying what an idiot the diver was for diving beyond his/her experience and training. It's almost like posters want their cake and eat it too.
I've been on the Yukon and Ruby E before. Did my AOW deep dive and wreck dive certification on the same charter. 2 dives Yukon, 1 dive on the Ruby E. While conditions were great for my dive with over 20 feet viz, the comments were previous week viz was like pea soup, less than 10 ft. It was also very cold but we didn't have that much surge. Ironically the dive can be no problem to you better be a very good diver with lots of experience depending on the day and conditions.
As for my daughter, she's actually pretty good and very cautious with now 16 dives under her belt. She's asked for and will be signing up for AOW certification for her birthday in April. She won't want to try something that deep without proper training/classes first. And she at least needs to know how to use her compass better. We were in only 20 ft this morning but she didn't know the compass reading home. Good thing she was with her dad.
Personally, I felt more comfortable on my first dive to 100 ft with my instructor. She will at least have the same chance.
drrich2
Contributor
Got a couple of thoughts here. Following up what Jim Lapenta wrote:
I agree mainly because of the mentality for handling stress and thoughtfully planning things out from a safety perspective that this course teaches. I'm not pushing it because I think one of you may have to haul the other out. It is a good course, but sometimes for reasons you might not suspect. The other reason is because it educates you more about the potential detrimental effects of nitrogen bubble formation and lung over-expansion injuries, driving home the importance of avoiding rapid ascents and breath holding.
The PADI Deep Diver course, if no extra content is added by the instructor and it's conducted in a high viz, warm water, no current environment (my deepest dive was at Oil Slick Leap in Bonaire, with those conditions), may seem rather easy and a bit simple. Still worthwhile to me. My thinking:
1.) Individual susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis varies between people and within a person on different dives, but some people are more susceptible than others. On my dive to 130 feet, I had an instructor with my buddy and I, and an additional support person who slung a tank in case we somehow had an out-of-air situation. If somebody got narc.'d or blew through their air too fast, we had some backup resources available.
2.) I don't intended to dive over 100 feet deep unless I need to someday (if I ever dive the Oriskany or a wreck off North Carolina to dive with sand tiger sharks), but I want some idea whether I seem prone to narcosis (one dive in optimal conditions doesn't prove much, but it's a start). But testing my narcosis susceptibility a good deal deeper than I usually dive, with an instructor present, seemed prudent.
Richard.
I agree mainly because of the mentality for handling stress and thoughtfully planning things out from a safety perspective that this course teaches. I'm not pushing it because I think one of you may have to haul the other out. It is a good course, but sometimes for reasons you might not suspect. The other reason is because it educates you more about the potential detrimental effects of nitrogen bubble formation and lung over-expansion injuries, driving home the importance of avoiding rapid ascents and breath holding.
The PADI Deep Diver course, if no extra content is added by the instructor and it's conducted in a high viz, warm water, no current environment (my deepest dive was at Oil Slick Leap in Bonaire, with those conditions), may seem rather easy and a bit simple. Still worthwhile to me. My thinking:
1.) Individual susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis varies between people and within a person on different dives, but some people are more susceptible than others. On my dive to 130 feet, I had an instructor with my buddy and I, and an additional support person who slung a tank in case we somehow had an out-of-air situation. If somebody got narc.'d or blew through their air too fast, we had some backup resources available.
2.) I don't intended to dive over 100 feet deep unless I need to someday (if I ever dive the Oriskany or a wreck off North Carolina to dive with sand tiger sharks), but I want some idea whether I seem prone to narcosis (one dive in optimal conditions doesn't prove much, but it's a start). But testing my narcosis susceptibility a good deal deeper than I usually dive, with an instructor present, seemed prudent.
Richard.
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