Completed OW today

[Jim Lapenta]

So if the standards for the cycle course say you need to have 5 hours of riding on actual roads you can just say screw it. It's too cold, rainy, my butt hurts and let them go home after 3 hours? Must be why we have those crotch rocket idiots doing wheelies on the freeway. Standards, laws, rules, etc mean nothing. I've only been riding for 40 years so what do I know though. I do know that our cycle riding instructor failed some people who did not meet standards and no class or seat time was reduced for those of us who breezed through the class. They stuck to the rules and is why they have my respect. Plus even after all those years of riding I still learned a few things because they did not cut corners. Even though when I did my class in October we had frost on the bikes on one morning.

 

[NorCalDM]

I've road motorcycles of every kind my entire life also raced professionally for 11 years and honestly it has nothing to do with scuba other than maybe some mental prep. Your pissed because you were happy that you completed your class and felt good about that and then find out your instructor didn't follow the standards he should of. Nothing I've read here was an attack on you but pointing out that your instructor failed you. Maybe you nailed all your skills and are vary prepared to move on but not everybody gets in the first time. I have worked many OW classes and can only think of a few students that were "naturals" so with your instructor moving so fast and rushing your class through somebody didn't get it and may not be safe to dive on thier own and they don't even know. You didn't know they were breaking standards because they're not going to tell you they are and odds are nobody is going to turn them in so they will keep doing it so maybe we can push the limits a little further!

 

[PhatD1ver]

I quoted the WRSTC (that would be World Recreational Scuba Training Council) rules. There is no 4th dive in a day. Call it a fun dive, call it William, it doesn't matter, a 4th dive in a day for non-certified divers is breaking standards.

A student is not expected to know standards. Standards are for instructors to know. I know Stuart is now mad at all of us, and I feel badly about that, because it isn't about him.

Sure, I hear ya. But first I just checked my log book, I was done at three dives (since I'd done DSD in February), so the 4th dive was simply a FUN dive, even if the ink hadn't been put to paper on my c-card. Wait, if PADI doesn't have me recorded as a certified diver? Does that mean I can't make a 4th dive?

I'm a little more pragmatic about industries where there is "self-regulation". If dive 4 presents no more risk to the student than dives 1-3, I don't see the issue.

WRSTC doesn't pay the bills for any LDS I'm aware of. Some of these operators have money invested in boats, equipment, and personnel. They aren't just some guy who got his instructor license and hung out a shingle to teach on weekends. They have customers that paid for airfare and accomodations to get to remote locations with the single purpose of diving. And I'm willing to hazard a guess that while there might be the LDS that will tell a customer they have to sit out the next dive while the rest of the folks on the boat go for one more dive, I am also willing to bet that the smart LDS operator knows his bread and butter is to cater to the needs of the customer and go ahead and conduct a guided 'fun dive' if the student is capable.

In my case, it was my 7th dive overall. And it was conducted at 8 meters max depth. They took every precaution to be sure that I was safe, except for keeping me OUT OF THE WATER.

Say what you want, maybe it was because this was the last dives at the end of the season (literally, they were closing shop for four months the day after I left), maybe it's just I'm such a nifty diver (kinda doubt that too)... but I do know what worked in my case, is there is a reason I am going back and spending a week diving off their boat in February. Because I am absolutely sure I'll get my money's worth.

 

[Ting Tong]

I am done with this thread. I have gotten a bad taste in my mouth from several threads on ScubaBoard before and this is now the worst.

I know were you are coming from. Just treat it as water off a ducks back. Whilst some members may be "passionate" some others, are down right rude, IMHO. Use the block feature, is my advice.

Several people here have been really nice and genuinely helpful to me.

This is the reason for you to stay on the board. Keep asking questions, you will soon learn who the geniune helpful members and can filter the information that you need. I have had PM's from people on the other side of the world, unknown to me, who offered advice on further training for me in my local area.

Excuse me while I step away from my computer for a while and try to remember why I come here and why I even thought about sharing my happiness here.

Congratulations on your OW achievement! My advice to you is dive, dive, dive (within you and your buddies limit). I was amazed how quickly I progressed in basic buoyancy control in the first 20 dives after certification. Practice, practice, practice and practice some more, the skills that you learnt in your OW class.

Cheers

Dave

 

[rattlenbones]

No matter what the rules are, you and your collective group must understand the gains / losses from breaking rules.
Most rules / standards change as we break them with Understanding - BEWARE a lifetime lesson / rule may be learned.
Thats how we move forward as i see it.

Aloha

 

[PhatD1ver]

the thing I find interesting is that we teach 'standards' like 'never dive alone', but it's okay for people to do it anyway.

 

[rockystock1]

I am done with this thread. I have gotten a bad taste in my mouth from several threads on ScubaBoard before and this is now the worst.

Several people here have been really nice and genuinely helpful to me. But, there seems to be way more people here that are judgmental condescending holier-than-thou types who automatically and instantly draw conclusions about people and events that they don't know anything (or virtually nothing) about. And now you're telling me that you've decided I am not sufficiently well trained to be entrusted with an OW certification card and your good-intentions-because-you-know-better-than-me-or-my-instructor may actually cost me my C card (pending further training)?!?

Excuse me while I step away from my computer for a while and try to remember why I come here and why I even thought about sharing my happiness here.

I was joking,, I'm hopefully doing 4 dives on the 9th..
I think my british humour got lost in translation
Chin up brother


Mike

 

[tomfcrist]

the thing I find interesting is that we teach 'standards' like 'never dive alone', but it's okay for people to do it anyway.

You are confused about what a training standard is.

The buddy system is a concept that is part of just about every OWD curriculum I know of.

The standards of the course are better referred to as the training objectives and the training restrictions. Both the objective and the restrictions are related as the objective must contain a behavior,a condition and a standard. This must be observable and measurable. For example..".dive using the buddy system" is not an acceptable objective. It contains no "standard", however it has a behavior and a condition. "Dive using the buddy system by remaining no further than 10 ft from buddy" is a proper standard. As a beginner diver why would an instructor tell a student that he or she can dive alone? They don't have the experience to do so safely. I assure you there is no hypocrisy in this thought process. When a student is ready to dive solo, they are free to doo so...just not while in my class.

 

[RJP]

the thing I find interesting is that we teach 'standards' like 'never dive alone', but it's okay for people to do it anyway.

I think the issue here is that non-instructors don't really understand what the term "standards" means in scuba training.

We're talking here about the mandatory standards of course conduct in the instructor's manual. What you don't understand is that while you type 'standards' in cute little finger quotes as if that softens the edges a bit, the instructors here know that the word STANDARDS is written in bold, italics, and underlined. The word has a very specific meaning. Instructors know - or should know - that standards are non-negotiable. They are not flexible. They are not conditional. They are not subject to an instructor's judgement. If a standard says "No more than three" it means "Three is the maximum" not "three or four, whatever you think works for your students." If the standards intended to allow for four dives... they would say "no more than four."

Training standards are not "taught" to students, they are "held to" by instructors, who have signed an agreement to uphold these standards, and consent to potentially losing their instructor status if they do NOT uphold these standards.

There is no such STANDARD regarding solo diving. Hell, the agency in question here offers a Solo Diving certification.

---------- Post added November 3rd, 2014 at 07:24 AM ----------

Sure, I hear ya. But first I just checked my log book, I was done at three dives (since I'd done DSD in February), so the 4th dive was simply a FUN dive, even if the ink hadn't been put to paper on my c-card. Wait, if PADI doesn't have me recorded as a certified diver? Does that mean I can't make a 4th dive?

Well, your situation is off-point then. You originally made it sound like you only did three training dives, a fourth "fun" dive, and were given a c-card... implying that your instructor was skirting the standards by not calling the fourth dive a training dive. That's not the case.

PADI standards (there's that pesky word again) allow a student diver to get credit for OW Dive 1 if they've successfully participated in a DSD. So the fact of the matter is that your instructor did adhere to the standards for course conduct.

 

[Wookie]

Let me carry on with an example. Maybe it doesn't apply, but here goes anyway. I operate a charter boat. We have certain rules on the charter boat. We are held to standards also, by the Coast Guard, and the fine for breaking the standards can be swift and severe, but they don't really apply to diving. Now, back to these "rules". Lots of folks don't really think the rules apply to them, as we have created a society where everyone is a winner, and each person out there is taught that they are better than the person standing next to them. I assure you, very few on this board have more logged dives than I have, which doesn't make me a better diver, but it sure makes me more experienced and I've seen most of it. The rules apply to everyone equally. Why? Well, one of the rules is don't run out of air. Seems silly, right? Running out of air is one of the most preventable ways of dying I've ever seen, and likely the number 2 leading cause of drowning after having a heart attack. So we have a rule that says don't run out of air. Guess what? The rule isn't about you, because, quite honestly, I don't really want to get in the way of anyone looking to get the Darwin Award. It isn't about you dying in this case, it's about the other 23 folks on the boat who have lost their vacation because I have to bring your smelly butt, leaking various body fluids, stinking to high heaven, home again. The Coast Guard won't fly for a body, they will only fly for a victim. So I have no way to unload a body, I have to end the trip and bring them home. So the rule isn't about you, it's to protect the other 23

Same with the 3 dive a day rule. It isn't about you. It isn't about the water baby, it isn't about the natural, it isn't about the mechanical genius who is intuitive when it comes to how diving works. It isn't about the cold, or the seas, or the vis, or the conditions. It's about learning. Congratulations to those who learn faster by hands on apprenticeship. We aren't all that way. Some are slower. Maybe Stuart's girlfriend and (presumably) buddy learns better by reading and absorbing. Maybe Phatd1ver's kids learn better by repetition and practice. Maybe the rest of the folks in Mike's (Rockystock1) class aren't as gung ho or comfortable in the water as Mike is. See, it isn't about Stuart or Mike or Phatd1ver, it's about teamwork. It's a weekend out of your life, and it's about helping out your buddy. It's about learning patience while the slowest gain the same mastery of the skill that Stuart and Mike and Phatd1ver have. Diving is a sport best enjoyed with someone else, IMHO. It isn't a race to see who finishes first, it isn't a skills competition to see who hovers motionless best, it isn't a competition to see who burns less air. Someone will be a natural, and some will struggle. You will find throughout your diving life that the boat (unless you own your own) will take you to the dive site that everyone on the boat can handle. They aren't going to put the least skilled diver in water they can't handle. Diving is a Least Common Denominator sport, because it isn't about you, it's about the least able person in the class, on the boat, and in the group.

So relax. Take some time on the platform while everyone else is struggling with the skill you breezed through and practice your hover. I promise, someone out there does it better than you do. When your 3 dives are done, go torch up a campfire, boil some water to warm up the wetsuits, have a scotch and a cigar, practice cooking a gourmet meal on a campfire. Put the dutch oven in the coals and get the tents ready for the rest of the divers who aren't as fast or as skilled as you. Schlep the tanks to the fill station. Get on your motorbike and go explore the area. Relax in the Utah hot spring. Take your clothes off and chase the old lady around the campsite to the amusement of the other campers. That last may not be appropriate in Utah, unless you plan on bringing another soul in from wherever they come from. Life is all about what you do in between the times you're doing something else.