Question Checking the Level of Divers, so many new Agency's. All are legit ?

[Pavao]

Why a professional experienced LOB would do this is beyond me. The first dive of any multiday trip with unvetted passengers should probably not be to 100ft with a midwater ascent. What's wrong with a 40ft bimble in low current OW checkout dive conditions with a staff person/DM tagging along?

My point has been that it is just not logistically practical to adopt a check out dive culture in many locations. You have quoted me upthread where I gave a real life example of that.
On top of not being able to do a check out dive, there’s also the issue of its efficiency and validity, the incident example you posted is a clear case of that.

Sure its the current reality - which is just as flawed as the rest of the scuba industry. Doesn't have to be that way though.

We are 100% in agreement here, looks like we just disagree in the solution.

Why are you assuming a checkout dive is a 30 second mask clearing or whatever?

I’m not assuming, I’ve been told that’s what it in this very thread…

a checkout which would only need two minutes to see the diver in action. Even in a shallow pool.

And in the first 30 seconds of a dive a good guide or instructor knows if a person can dive or not.

divers were taken down one or two at a time to demonstrate mask clearing and a couple of other fundamental skills.

The "checkout" actually starts on the surface observing how guests get ready and continues underwater.

Let’s kick this up a notch, I’m not sure how your guys world is, but around these parts, tech dives are done with first time costumers often, your guys heads are exploding about a diver doing a guided recreational 100’ dive as a first time costumers.

Look, I’ve said it upthread, in principle, I’d love the vetting process idea, almost more than anyone in this thread, given I work as a guide and the last thing I want is be involved in an accident when I’m working, it’s just not efficient, or realistic.
I’d rather concentrate my efforts on training quality.

 

[tursiops]

And the instant gratification you mentioned can have a bad effect, as students nowadays will get an instant email from the agency and it will be viewed instantly on their phones, they’ll know ahead of time they have already passed the class they’re yet to finish.

I don't believe this is true. They do not get an email until the date the instructor has put on the card, and taht date can be (say0 the day AFTER the final cert dive, which is plenty of time to cancel the on-line cert if necessary.

 

[tursiops]

@Pavao, a lot of the weeding out can be done prior to arrival to dive. When signing up for the dive, prior experience and most-recent dive can be asked for, not just the cert level. If your operator (whom it appears from your arguments doesn't do any of this prior weeding) is lax, that's on them.

 

[Pavao]

@Pavao, a lot of the weeding out can be done prior to arrival to dive. When signing up for the dive, prior experience and most-recent dive can be asked for, not just the cert level. If your operator (whom it appears from your arguments doesn't do any of this prior weeding) is lax, that's on them.

I’m not sure you realize it, but you’re arguing my point. We don’t do check out dives in south Florida, btw, I don’t work for the entire south Florida, so the entire south Florida is not my operator.
But in part, we don’t do check out dives BECAUSE of the weeding out prior to arrival WE DO.

I have at least on one occasion, on a former operator I worked for, denied going out with a couple of divers who had signed up to dive, the person taking the reservation deemed the couple would be best served hiring a private guide from the weeding process you mention and assigned me to be the private guide. When I arrived and met with them, I discovered they hadn’t dove in over 15 years and had basically just taken the OW course but not much or no diving past that. No check out dive needed here, even if one was possible, no point taking them out on the boat, they don’t need a private guide, at a minimum they need a refresher.
I chose not to make money that day and a staff discussion on signing up people to dive with a few more defined criteria’s was had.

 

[CG43]

Because I don't keep a logbook, I had to do a check dive with the instructor.
It was charged at $40 instead of $25.
Since I had chosen a "wall dive" we took the opportunity to go a little deep and since we both knew how to handle the air well, some deco was necessary. The instructor with his computer and me for comparison with gauge, watch and tabel. That was the best dive on this boat because afterwards I was allowed (had to) play babbysitter.

 

[tursiops]

I’m not sure you realize it, but you’re arguing my point. We don’t do check out dives in south Florida, btw, I don’t work for the entire south Florida, so the entire south Florida is not my operator.
But in part, we don’t do check out dives BECAUSE of the weeding out prior to arrival WE DO.

I have at least on one occasion, on a former operator I worked for, denied going out with a couple of divers who had signed up to dive, the person taking the reservation deemed the couple would be best served hiring a private guide from the weeding process you mention and assigned me to be the private guide. When I arrived and met with them, I discovered they hadn’t dove in over 15 years and had basically just taken the OW course but not much or no diving past that. No check out dive needed here, even if one was possible, no point taking them out on the boat, they don’t need a private guide, at a minimum they need a refresher.
I chose not to make money that day and a staff discussion on signing up people to dive with a few more defined criteria’s was had.

So long as you -- the instructor -- have some integrity, it sounds like the system is working.

 

[Pavao]

So long as you -- the instructor -- have some integrity, it sounds like the system is working.

I wish you were right, but the system is far from perfect, and apologies if I made it sound like it’s working just fine, it’s a matter of when till we find ourselves in a hairy situation.

About a 1.5 years ago I found myself in one, a father who was underweighted on a 80’ drift dive started floating up when tank started getting low, instead of ending dive and ascending, he kept fighting it, in the last fight, after getting as shallow as about 25’, after some struggle, which meant he must’ve been quite low on air at that point as he was doing the full swimming with his arms thing, he made a dash all the way down to reef to grab it, if you’re wondering why he’d do that, I was wondering the same as I caught a glimpse of him on my ascent, up current, his daughter which was with me, frantically signaling me to do something, pointing towards him, there was nothing I could do, no one would be able to overcome the current to get back to him, in less than minute there’s no sign of him whatsoever, at the surface I try calming the daughter down that he’s fine and would have ascended once he realized we were not there and pointing out the boat picking someone up was probably him, all her concerns were more than likely the fact he was alone, but I knew the situation was a lot worse than she realized, there was very little chance that guy did not run out of air, all I could hope for is that he made it to the surface in an emergency ascent, that was not a good feeling. He did run out of air and he did make it to the surface, it was quite a relief seeing him on the boat when we got back on board.

 

[tursiops]

I wish you were right, but the system is far from perfect, and apologies if I made it sound like it’s working just fine, it’s a matter of when till we find ourselves in a hairy situation.

About a 1.5 years ago I found myself in one, a father who was underweighted on a 80’ drift dive started floating up when tank started getting low, instead of ending dive and ascending, he kept fighting it, in the last fight, after getting as shallow as about 25’, after some struggle, which meant he must’ve been quite low on air at that point as he was doing the full swimming with his arms thing, he made a dash all the way down to reef to grab it, if you’re wondering why he’d do that, I was wondering the same as I caught a glimpse of him on my ascent, up current, his daughter which was with me, frantically signaling me to do something, pointing towards him, there was nothing I could do, no one would be able to overcome the current to get back to him, in less than minute there’s no sign of him whatsoever, at the surface I try calming the daughter down that he’s fine and would have ascended once he realized we were not there and pointing out the boat picking someone up was probably him, all her concerns were more than likely the fact he was alone, but I knew the situation was a lot worse than she realized, there was very little chance that guy did not run out of air, all I could hope for is that he made it to the surface in an emergency ascent, that was not a good feeling. He did run out of air and he did make it to the surface, it was quite a relief seeing him on the boat when we got back on board.

I've often seen DMs tell everyone on the first dive that we'd all descend together, and to wait on the surface until all were in. The, thumbs down, and anyone NOT scending quickly was picked out as a potential problem and handed another weight or two. The better DMs also wander around the boat before the dive and ask everyone what weight they are carrying. Some errors get caught then, too. I think the key is a layered approach: it starts with the dive shop making the reservation, checking credentials, most recent dive, number of dives, deepest, etc, then on the boat watching the setups, then casual conversation with the likely suspects, then a careful first entry as described above, then watching during the dive.
I usually dive with the group that I am leading on the trip, and I treat the first dive as a checkout; I don't carry a camera on that dive, I'm watching everyone all the time, giving gentle assistance where needed. We also use that first dive for everyone to practice with their SMB/DSMB. Extra points if they are carrying a camera. Most have never deployed their sausage, and likely njone has ever done it while carrying a camera. It is a great learning experience.

 

[Pavao]

I've often seen DMs tell everyone on the first dive that we'd all descend together, and to wait on the surface until all were in. The, thumbs down, and anyone NOT scending quickly was picked out as a potential problem and handed another weight or two. The better DMs also wander around the boat before the dive and ask everyone what weight they are carrying. Some errors get caught then, too. I think the key is a layered approach: it starts with the dive shop making the reservation, checking credentials, most recent dive, number of dives, deepest, etc, then on the boat watching the setups, then casual conversation with the likely suspects, then a careful first entry as described above, then watching during the dive.
I usually dive with the group that I am leading on the trip, and I treat the first dive as a checkout; I don't carry a camera on that dive, I'm watching everyone all the time, giving gentle assistance where needed. We also use that first dive for everyone to practice with their SMB/DSMB. Extra points if they are carrying a camera. Most have never deployed their sausage, and likely njone has ever done it while carrying a camera. It is a great learning experience.

Yes .

My captain handles the reservations and does the pre screening, he lets me know about anyone I should know about when we meet and I act accordingly. Likewise when I observe something on the boat when they’re prepping up, I let him know so he can be on the alert and also pick the dive site accordingly.

In addition to what you wrote above, I make sure the divers who we suspect might need more attention are the ones I’m gonna stay close to and let them know that too, works wonders to lower their anxiety knowing someone is paying close attention to them, for that first dive I also carry a few extra weights on a clips, I hate doing that for my own dive if I end up doing the whole dive with them, better tip me well (divepro rant)

 

[rjack321]

The best checkout dive I did was on an Australian LOB. It was the first dive of the trip. We were broken up into groups and led by one of the crew. It was a full dive. When we were done, we were listed on a board with our new groups. My two friends and I were allowed to go it alone. The others were assigned to a DM in groups ranked by perceived ability.

This is similar to my last recreational liveaboard experience. First dive of the trip was a semi supervised dive at a benign shallow hard bottom site.

My tech liveaboard experience(s) had no such hand holding, if you die it's on you. We still always went to one of the easiest sites of the week first as a shake down dive. I had issues with a leaky CL once and it was a bit of a cluster getting back aboard to fix it. But was fine.