Question Checking the Level of Divers, so many new Agency's. All are legit ?

[Pavao]

U.K. charter boats are supplying a taxi service with no responsibility for the divers once they jump off the boat.

The responsibility for diver competence rests with the Dive Manager(s).

What is a Dive Manager?

 

[Pavao]

This plan is flawed from the start.

Booking paying customers sight unseen ever before, 20 to the boat, with 1 deckhand and nobody in the water with them at all, while planning a hot drop is how we end up with "accidents" like this. Just because its typical doesnt mean it's a good practice.

Error Thread 'INCIDENT IN PALAU THAT COULD HAVE BEEN REALLY BAD'

Nov 17, 2024

This is excerpted from my Palau trip report (got back last week). This incident IMHO could easily have had a much worse utcome. Butg I thought it merited some discussion in this forum. And for perspective if you've never dove the Palau Aggressor II, this is the dive skiff that's central to the story:

We finished the day at a place called Sandy Paradise, not far from Ulong Channel and this provided one of the most dangerous experiences of the trip.

The dangerous part came at the end of this dive and involved two divers on the trip who were not part of our group but part...

• Ken Kurtis
• Replies: 35
• Forum: Accidents, Incidents, & Near Misses

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Flawed as may be, that’s reality though, and it’s meant to put into perspective to those claiming check out dives are easily done and no one should object to it.

Which btw, in the incident example you provided, I read it and saw absolutely nothing in there a check out dive would have solved the issue, did you? From what I can see, the couple would have passed this “30 seconds easily done” check out dive and deemed fit to dive, in fact, that dive was at the end of dive day, so, seems like some previous dives were conducted without issues. The couple made a judgmental error.
These “easily done” dive checks some are claiming are designed to check divers competence regarding basic dive skills.

In addition, the number of divers also have nothing to do with it, that couple, for all we know, would have done the same mistake if there were only a half dozen divers on that skiff.

 

[boulderjohn]

In addition, the number of divers also have nothing to do with it, that couple, for all we know, would have done the same mistake if there were only a half dozen divers on that skiff.

I did not post in that thread, but I experienced something similar in Palau, and, as you suggest here, it had nothing to do with the skill of the divers, and a checkout dive would not have revealed an issue.

In our case, we had a thorough predive briefing that included the fact that at the end of the dive, we were going to be at a land form with a strong current, and we would need to head off into the open water together and then drift as a group for the ascent and safety stop. The need for us to stay together was emphasized. We had two Russian divers with big cameras who were constantly causing problems throughout the dives by lingering long over photographic situations while the rest of the group was trying to move on. True to form, when we came to the end of the dive and began the drifting ascent, at the last second they both decided to go back and take some more pictures. The DM tried to get their attention, but some of the group had already started to ascend in the current, and he had no choice but to go with the group and leave the two of them behind with their big cameras. As we were doing our safety stop, I caught sight of the DM's face, and he was clearly worried. Then in the distance in the hazy water I caught a glimpse of a scuba tank and pointed it out. We went over and found them.

The point is that the most skilled divers can make bonehead decisions; in fact, it is often the more skilled and overconfident that do. A checkout dive will not reveal that.

It is similar to a question you often see asked in threads when a scuba instructor does something totally idiotic that leads to a fatality. How could the agency have certified such an incompetent instructor? Well, I'm pretty sure the instructor did not do anything like that during the certification process, just as I'm sure alcoholics do not show up drunk for their driving exams.

 

[Wibble]

I know I'm not unique in this observation, but I find I loose at least half of my IQ as soon as I jump into the water. Sometimes it's only muscle memory and repetitive actions that save me!

The point about checking a diver's competence in the water is just that someone who's dived up will kit up without fuss and be aware of the subtle issues such as weighting if it's different from their normal diving conditions. In the water they'd be in control, in trim, stable and be able to use their fins effectively, all whilst cleaning up their kit config and being aware of things going on around them.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here's what a checkout dive will do for you.

In October 2003, the Mike Ball Liveaboard set off for Australia's Great Barrier Reef. They had a policy of requiring checkout dives for all divers. One of the divers, Gabe Watson, convinced them that the fact that he was a NASDS certified rescue diver meant that he could be responsible for the safety not only of himself but for his bride Tina, who was newly certified by the same NASDS instructor. Mike Ball agreed to waive the required checkout dive because of his self-described expertise, and they did the first dive to the wreck of the Yongala (about 100 feet deep).

The dive was a screwup for both of them, with Tina hopelessly incompetent and Gabe so unable to pull off a simple rescue that he was accused of intentional murder. Later analysis (despite what you may have read on the Internet) showed that he was indeed as incompetent as his failure to rescue her would have indicated. A look at both their certification processes showed that they were done so quickly that they could not possibly have met the requirements for their certifications. That level of incompetence could not have been hidden in a checkout dive.

Mike Ball paid a relatively minor fine for failing to follow their own policy when they waived the checkout dive.

 

[BabyLitigator]

Just did a dive at Bonne Terre in Missouri (US) and effectively the first dive was a checkout dive. Though pretty sure everyone there was either PADI or TDI certified so the list wasn't that long.

 

[Wibble]

Here's what [NOT DOING] a checkout dive will do for you.

In October 2003, the Mike Ball Liveaboard set off for Australia's Great Barrier Reef. They had a policy of requiring checkout dives for all divers. One of the divers, Gabe Watson, convinced them that the fact that he was a NASDS certified rescue diver meant that he could be responsible for the safety not only of himself but for his bride Tina, who was newly certified by the same NASDS instructor. Mike Ball agreed to waive the required checkout dive because of his self-described expertise, and they did the first dive to the wreck of the Yongala (about 100 feet deep).

The dive was a screwup for both of them, with Tina hopelessly incompetent and Gabe so unable to pull off a simple rescue that he was accused of intentional murder. Later analysis (despite what you may have read on the Internet) showed that he was indeed as incompetent as his failure to rescue her would have indicated. A look at both their certification processes showed that they were done so quickly that they could not possibly have met the requirements for their certifications. That level of incompetence could not have been hidden in a checkout dive.

Mike Ball paid a relatively minor fine for failing to follow their own policy when they waived the checkout dive.

Maybe an over-confident incompetent may get through a test, but hopefully others won't and will be put in with the novices' group until they can demonstrate competence.

Memories of diving with some "technical divers" who struggled with the concept of not kicking up the silt; who had vertical bailouts; trim like seahorses; had cert cards that were way beyond their skills... It's their lives and everybody else's spoiled dives.

 

[rjack321]

they did the first dive to the wreck of the Yongala (about 100 feet deep).

Why a professional experienced LOB would do this is beyond me. The first dive of any multiday trip with unvetted passengers should probably not be to 100ft with a midwater ascent. What's wrong with a 40ft bimble in low current OW checkout dive conditions with a staff person/DM tagging along?

 

[rjack321]

Flawed as may be, that’s reality though, and it’s meant to put into perspective to those claiming check out dives are easily done and no one should object to it.

Which btw, in the incident example you provided, I read it and saw absolutely nothing in there a check out dive would have solved the issue, did you? From what I can see, the couple would have passed this “30 seconds easily done” check out dive and deemed fit to dive, in fact, that dive was at the end of dive day, so, seems like some previous dives were conducted without issues. The couple made a judgmental error.
These “easily done” dive checks some are claiming are designed to check divers competence regarding basic dive skills.

In addition, the number of divers also have nothing to do with it, that couple, for all we know, would have done the same mistake if there were only a half dozen divers on that skiff.

Sure its the current reality - which is just as flawed as the rest of the scuba industry. Doesn't have to be that way though.

Why are you assuming a checkout dive is a 30 second mask clearing or whatever? The "checkout" actually starts on the surface observing how guests get ready and continues underwater.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why are you assuming a checkout dive is a 30 second mask clearing or whatever? The "checkout" actually starts on the surface observing how guests get ready and continues underwater.

The best checkout dive I did was on an Australian LOB. It was the first dive of the trip. We were broken up into groups and led by one of the crew. It was a full dive. When we were done, we were listed on a board with our new groups. My two friends and I were allowed to go it alone. The others were assigned to a DM in groups ranked by perceived ability.