Question Checking the Level of Divers, so many new Agency's. All are legit ?

[Pavao]

It is very location dependent.
How would that work for a place where divers meet at 8am for a boat departure at 9am at a location where there is nowhere to do a check out dive?
Do the check out dive at the beginning of the actual dive? And if the diver isn’t fit to dive, then what? Have you ever done any drift dives with 20 divers? As the one conducting the check out, how’d you do it?

Consider now that you’re the experienced one, but a diver in the group isn’t fit to dive, abort dive for everyone?

There are plenty coastlines where diver operators are found along that coast for miles, some people travel through places like this and dive 1 time at various operators once, imagine that each would require a checkout dive, I certainly would object to the inconvenience and would have nothing to do with me having something to hide.

As someone who works on dive boats, believe me, a vetting process would be wonderful, it’s just not practical at many places, I’m not against the idea as a principle, but logistically there certainly is a reason to object to it.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have only done checkout dives on Liveaboards. I was required to do one in Bonaire, but no one was watching when I did it, so it was just a regular dive.

In The History of NAUI, written by its founders, they note that they had a problem from the very beginning. Instructors would create a class, send the roster to NAUI, and NAUI would send the certification cards so that the instructor could hand the students their cards when the class was over. They realized that in many cases, students were getting their cards before they had finished the class; in some cases, students got the cards without taking the class at all. They did not know how to deal with it.

In the famous case of Gabe and Tina Watson, analysis of the circumstances of her death showed that the training they both got from their NASDS instructor was far from complete.

NAUI and NASDS (now SSI) are credible agencies. Take a look at the website for Scuba Divers of America. Can you tell from it that this is NOT a credible dive agency? You have to do some research to find that out.

The point is that from the very start, people have gotten certification cards from credible organizations without having earned them. Knowing that the certification card comes from such an organization will usually give you an indication of training, but not always.

 

[tursiops]

Where I can found a exhaustive list of all legit agency ?

List of diver certification organizations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pavao]

I have only done checkout dives on Liveaboards. I was required to do one in Bonaire, but no one was watching when I did it, so it was just a regular dive.

In The History of NAUI, written by its founders, they note that they had a problem from the very beginning. Instructors would create a class, send the roster to NAUI, and NAUI would send the certification cards so that the instructor could hand the students their cards when the class was over. They realized that in many cases, students were getting their cards before they had finished the class; in some cases, students got the cards without taking the class at all. They did not know how to deal with it.

In the famous case of Gabe and Tina Watson, analysis of the circumstances of her death showed that the training they both got from their NASDS instructor was far from complete.

NAUI and NASDS (now SSI) are credible agencies. Take a look at the website for Scuba Divers of America. Can you tell from it that this is NOT a credible dive agency? You have to do some research to find that out.

The point is that from the very start, people have gotten certification cards from credible organizations without having earned them. Knowing that the certification card comes from such an organization will usually give you an indication of training, but not always.

Similar thoughts I have every time I see the videos/pictures of instructors handing the C-card and shacking the students hands underwater during the last dive of the class.
The card was obviously printed before the dive started, so the instructor has already certified the student before they even got in the water to finish the class.

 

[tursiops]

The card was obviously printed before the dive started, so the instructor has already certified the student before they even got in the water to finish the class.

I've done this (as an instructor) for some continuing education classes, but there are two caveats: (1) the student has to actually do and finish the class successfully, and (2) when you preregister the card, you put a date on the card, and it is not valid until then. The instant gratification is good, and nothing is lost if the student does not manage to do the class successfully, except at most a few dollars for the card. I've only done it with good students. The questionable ones get to wait until afterwards, if they do in fact pass.

 

[Wibble]

It is very location dependent.
How would that work for a place where divers meet at 8am for a boat departure at 9am at a location where there is nowhere to do a check out dive?
Do the check out dive at the beginning of the actual dive? And if the diver isn’t fit to dive, then what? Have you ever done any drift dives with 20 divers? As the one conducting the check out, how’d you do it?

Consider now that you’re the experienced one, but a diver in the group isn’t fit to dive, abort dive for everyone?

There are plenty coastlines where diver operators are found along that coast for miles, some people travel through places like this and dive 1 time at various operators once, imagine that each would require a checkout dive, I certainly would object to the inconvenience and would have nothing to do with me having something to hide.

As someone who works on dive boats, believe me, a vetting process would be wonderful, it’s just not practical at many places, I’m not against the idea as a principle, but logistically there certainly is a reason to object to it.

The answer is to get the diver to prove their abilities in the assessment on their first dive. Until they're assessed then they're considered only qualified for OW dives to 18m/60ft. After the assessment they can join in with the more advanced dives; in essence a "shop" certified diver that has proved their bona-fides.

No experienced diver would be offended by this requirement. Not least as it means the more "advanced" groups aren't full of people with poor skills.

 

[Pavao]

I've done this (as an instructor) for some continuing education classes, but there are two caveats: (1) the student has to actually do and finish the class successfully, and (2) when you preregister the card, you put a date on the card, and it is not valid until then. The instant gratification is good, and nothing is lost if the student does not manage to do the class successfully, except at most a few dollars for the card. I've only done it with good students. The questionable ones get to wait until afterwards, if they do in fact pass.

I knew this exact response would come up, I almost addressed it to be proactive about it.
It is a big slippery slope, but the industry has far bigger issues in the training department for me to want to engage in this “cool” gesture by instructors.
And the instant gratification you mentioned can have a bad effect, as students nowadays will get an instant email from the agency and it will be viewed instantly on their phones, they’ll know ahead of time they have already passed the class they’re yet to finish.

 

[tursiops]

The answer is to get the diver to prove their abilities in the assessment on their first dive. Until they're assessed then they're considered only qualified for OW dives to 18m/60ft. After the assessment they can join in with the more advanced dives; in essence a "shop" certified diver that has proved their bona-fides.

No experienced diver would be offended by this requirement. Not least as it means the more "advanced" groups aren't full of people with poor skills.

Only twice have I been on a liveaboard whrre there was a formal assessment. The first was a university-based dive boat and science-diving research cruise; the second was the Cuan Law in the BVI. Both times, divers were taken down one or two at a time to demonstrate mask clearing and a couple of other fundamental skills. On the cuan Law, we who were instructors were exempted from the drill.

 

[Pavao]

The answer is to get the diver to prove their abilities in the assessment on their first dive. Until they're assessed then they're considered only qualified for OW dives to 18m/60ft. After the assessment they can join in with the more advanced dives; in essence a "shop" certified diver that has proved their bona-fides.

You missed the point about their first dive being THE dive they’re there to do. You also missed the part about 20 other divers being in the water, you’d be assessing all 20 of them, doesn’t work in the real world.

No experienced diver would be offended by this requirement. Not least as it means the more "advanced" groups aren't full of people with poor skills.

It’s not a matter of being offended, no one has anything about offense, it’s a matter of inconvenience about practical logistics.

 

[Wibble]

You missed the point about their first dive being THE dive they’re there to do. You also missed the part about 20 other divers being in the water, you’d be assessing all 20 of them, doesn’t work in the real world.

If you know their requirements, you'd know there'll be a checkout dive. Followed by dives with suitably qualified and experienced divers.

It’s not a matter of being offended, no one has anything about offense, it’s a matter of inconvenience about practical logistics.

It could easily be worked around if the rules are known.