Question Checking the Level of Divers, so many new Agency's. All are legit ?

[Pavao]

If you know their requirements, you'd know there'll be a checkout dive. Followed by dives with suitably qualified and experienced divers.


It could easily be worked around if the rules are known.

Here, let’s try this…

There’s a boat scheduled for a wreck dive at 100’ deep tomorrow, check in is at 7AM, boat leaves at 8AM, AOW + Nitrox required.
20 divers are signed up for it, it’s a hot drop drift dive, crew consists of 1 captain, 1 deckhand and 1 DM/guide. In some operations it may be just the captain and the DM working as a deckhand, no in water dive guide.
All 20 divers are first time visitors and they’re there for this one outing only, the divers have other plans for the second half of the day and the boat/crew have a second trip of the same type with a new group in the afternoon.

Given just the above, you still think it could easily be worked around to do check out dives?
Please do realize the above is not hypothetical, that’s a typical summer day in a place like south Florida.

 

[boulderjohn]

I thought people might be interested in the experience Bob Bailey (@MXGratefulDiver) had with a checkout dive. Hopefully I will describe it accurately--it's been years since I've heard it. (I think it was him.)

A travel glitch meant Bob missed the checkout dive for his trip, meaning he missed the first actual dives, since the checkout dive was required for all, including those with Bob's advanced certifications. He was not happy. The checkout dive was done in the pool, and it consisted of demonstrating basic skills. When Bob did the skills, the person conducting the dive did not find his performance acceptable. Bob had done the skills while hovering mid-water in horizontal trim. They made him get down on his knees and do them properly before they would let him dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I thought people might be interested in the experience Bob Bailey (@MXGratefulDiver) had with a checkout dive. Hopefully I will describe it accurately--it's been years since I've heard it. (I think it was him.

A travel glitch meant Bob missed the checkout dive for his trip, meaning he missed the first actual dives, since the checkout dive was required for all, including those with Bob's advanced certifications. He was not happy. The checkout dive was done in the pool, and it consisted of demonstrating basic skills. When Bob did the skills, the person conducting the dive did not find his performance acceptable. Bob had done the skills while hovering mid-water in horizontal trim. They made him get down on his knees and do them properly before they would let him dive.

Roatan … in the house lagoon … all else as described.

 

[Wibble]

Here, let’s try this…

There’s a boat scheduled for a wreck dive at 100’ deep tomorrow, check in is at 7AM, boat leaves at 8AM, AOW + Nitrox required.
20 divers are signed up for it, it’s a hot drop drift dive, crew consists of 1 captain, 1 deckhand and 1 DM/guide. In some operations it may be just the captain and the DM working as a deckhand, no in water dive guide.
All 20 divers are first time visitors and they’re there for this one outing only, the divers have other plans for the second half of the day and the boat/crew have a second trip of the same type with a new group in the afternoon.

Given just the above, you still think it could easily be worked around to do check out dives?
Please do realize the above is not hypothetical, that’s a typical summer day in a place like south Florida.

Don’t disagree at all. Seems like it would be a messy dive with a lot of trust-me I’m experienced (but not dived up) divers making a mess.

20 divers on one boat. Seems like a destination to avoid.

 

[Edward3c]

Here, let’s try this…

There’s a boat scheduled for a wreck dive at 100’ deep tomorrow, check in is at 7AM, boat leaves at 8AM, AOW + Nitrox required.
20 divers are signed up for it, it’s a hot drop drift dive, crew consists of 1 captain, 1 deckhand and 1 DM/guide. In some operations it may be just the captain and the DM working as a deckhand, no in water dive guide.
All 20 divers are first time visitors and they’re there for this one outing only, the divers have other plans for the second half of the day and the boat/crew have a second trip of the same type with a new group in the afternoon.

Given just the above, you still think it could easily be worked around to do check out dives?
Please do realize the above is not hypothetical, that’s a typical summer day in a place like south Florida.

Here in the U.K.

Dive boats have a maximum of 12 divers. Any more and the boat would need to carry at least 8 lifeboats and operate under SOLAS. Additionally, U.K. charter boats are supplying a taxi service with no responsibility for the divers once they jump off the boat.

The responsibility for diver competence rests with the Dive Manager(s). That said there is no legislation a diver must have received training.

When someone first dives with my dive club I assign a minimum of a Dive Leader to be their buddy, to confirm their skill level. Plus it would be a tame dive to around 30m.

 

[rjack321]

Here, let’s try this…

There’s a boat scheduled for a wreck dive at 100’ deep tomorrow, check in is at 7AM, boat leaves at 8AM, AOW + Nitrox required.
20 divers are signed up for it, it’s a hot drop drift dive, crew consists of 1 captain, 1 deckhand and 1 DM/guide. In some operations it may be just the captain and the DM working as a deckhand, no in water dive guide.
All 20 divers are first time visitors and they’re there for this one outing only, the divers have other plans for the second half of the day and the boat/crew have a second trip of the same type with a new group in the afternoon.

Given just the above, you still think it could easily be worked around to do check out dives?
Please do realize the above is not hypothetical, that’s a typical summer day in a place like south Florida.

This plan is flawed from the start.

Booking paying customers sight unseen ever before, 20 to the boat, with 1 deckhand and nobody in the water with them at all, while planning a hot drop is how we end up with "accidents" like this. Just because its typical doesnt mean it's a good practice.

Error Thread 'INCIDENT IN PALAU THAT COULD HAVE BEEN REALLY BAD'

Nov 17, 2024

This is excerpted from my Palau trip report (got back last week). This incident IMHO could easily have had a much worse utcome. Butg I thought it merited some discussion in this forum. And for perspective if you've never dove the Palau Aggressor II, this is the dive skiff that's central to the story:

We finished the day at a place called Sandy Paradise, not far from Ulong Channel and this provided one of the most dangerous experiences of the trip.

The dangerous part came at the end of this dive and involved two divers on the trip who were not part of our group but part...

• Ken Kurtis
• Replies: 35
• Forum: Accidents, Incidents, & Near Misses

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[Germie]

I would have been offended if I had to do a checkdive and had to pay for it. I know a divecenter in Malta who has this policy, pay 40 euro for a checkdive for technical diving to swim 30 minutes (not 31 or 29, they know exactly the 30 minute round) with a twinset and stages over their housereef with a max depth of 12m. I did with this divecenter my full trimix course which was really great. Then went back only 6 months later and they wanted me and a friend to do this expensive paid checkdive. We have refused, so then it was all ok for us, but they still let others do. In my eyes a very bad policy, just to make money.

So I have never done a checkdive, but if needed, I can easy send them a link of some videos on youtube where I am on before I go to a divecenter. Sometimes I do.

On the last trips, I haven't had any discussions about checkdives. We told them what we wanted to do and they agreed, so we booked a flight and accomodation. 1 divecenter wanted us the first dive to get up with 70 bars, we have asked why and explained that even the 50 bars is not what we do in our country with cmas, it depends on the dive and the depth, sometimes more, sometimes less. So then it was the next dive 40 bars and after that also 15 bars were ok, as they had seen that we knew what we were doing and not had the intention to drain tanks completely, nor stay deep with not a lot of gas (if you are at 2-3m, then 20 bars is enough in an ali80). The guides really liked diving with us, so we also did a new 'recorddive' for them, they never had dived 90 minutes. And now they had the chance to do it. Was a nice time. And the guides were just there to show small stuff to us, not to babysit. And 2 instructors, 1 divemaster, 1 aow diver and 2 dm guides, yes, then you don't have a group with unexperienced divers of course and all divers know what to do.

In the UK last august I signed up as solo person for a trip to the Farne Islands. I just asked if I could go on 23 or 24 august and got a message back: both days are ok, so tell us which day. I wrote back a date and got an answer back: 9 in the harbour. On arrival, they did not ask me for certs, nor did ask if I wanted a buddy (I was hoping that they did not buddy me with another diver, but did not tell them). So they asked me if solo was no problem and I answered no, I prefer solo. I was just so friendly to ask what the max divetime was because I had a twinset (so still 1 tank per dive as I had to use the twinset for 2 dives) and the others on the boat single tanks. The answer was: most divers dive between 35 and 40 minutes, but the max divetime is up to you. So after 75 minutes I thought maybe it is better to get back to the boat now, all others will be in the boat already. And they were. No discussions, no problems with solodiving, really a good charter. They had a lift and helped me with the camera if needed. So nothing to complaign.
Also the other divers were friendly. After the boattrip one showed me a shore divesite just a km away from the harbour where I did another dive on my own.

I see a divecenter as a taxi to a divesite. And here the problem starts, a lot of divers never learned to dive on their own. They are used to be taken by hand. And then it bounces if there come divers that are used to dive without guides, or even are used to dive solo.
Here a big step forward can be done by the divecenters.
EVERY open water diver must be able to dive without a guide with just a buddy. So if you are an instructor or own a divecenter, if you certify a diver, do you think this diver is able to dive with your divecenter under the same circumstances without a guide or babysitter? Most will say no. In my opinion you failed the course then.

And please as owner of a divecenter, don't be arrogant. Sometimes there are customers with more experience than you have. So accept that and don't pet them as babies. If an experienced technical diver comes to a recreational divecenter then this is probably the diver that just want to blow bubbles and see colorfull fish and maybe take a camera with him under water. There is no need to ask every 3 minutes for the amount of gas, to remember such a diver about the ndl or the safetystop. They will just follow and know what they are doing. And yes, also technical divers do sometimes easy recreational divers just to see nice things. Be there also for the experienced customer and not only for the unexperienced.

And about the checkdive: last year in Bali they had a good system. You had to set up your own equipment for the first dive. As long as you failed, you did not get into the water. They did not do another check, and I can tell you this works really well. No other **** needed.

 

[Edward3c]

As you’ve most likely discovered. Your best option is to assess customers on their checkout dive. A paper qualification doesn’t mean they’re good to dive at your location. As an experienced diver I expect to be assessed on a checkout dive, it’s also my opportunity to checkout the dive operator.

Customers who object to a checkout dive usually have something to hide.

Some are assuming when I talk about a checkout dive it would involve skills being demonstrated, not the case.

For me a checkout dive is the first in a series where I confirm my weighting (going from cold water, drysuit to warm water 3mm wetsuit shortie). The operator gets to see whether my in-water abilities are as the bit of paper I signed. I'm not going to do a 40m+ with mandatory deco straight off the plane.

The operator I used in Grenada wouldn't take people on the Wk Bianca as their first dive. Similarly, the operator in Thailand wouldn't let anyone dive the Wk Yong Hua on accelerated deco as a first dive. Other operators might.

 

[B N Coleman]

Good day,
As owner of a dive club in Palawan, and we check as normal the divers qualifications for the fun dives.
Where I can found a exhaustive list of all legit agency ?
I feel not confortable as im doing today, I check only the Level. But problems is; as I see during last months, many diving licenses issued by new agency's, ...
Some idea, some online database .
Thank you
Patrick

There is a list of ISO, certified training agencies.

If you are not sure of the ISO standing of the agency, follow the link below.

Certification database

See all the certificates issued by Austrian Standards.

www.austrian-standards.at

Open the website and ensure that the right-hand option is selected type in the ISO number 24802-2 and click search.

A list of all the registered training agencies is listed. –

This is perhaps your best source to start with when checking agency credentials.

A little about ISC - International Scuba Certification / DiveISC.com

International Scuba Certification (ISC) and operating under DiveISC.com, is a dive training agency based in Sydney, Australia. It supports dive professionals by providing internationally recognized certification products (9 x ISO certifications), training materials, and credentials to certify new divers. The agency focuses on affordability, quality service, and empowering dive professionals to differentiate themselves in a competitive market.

DiveISC emphasizes innovation and customer-centric solutions, positioning itself as a viable alternative to larger training agencies. It also fosters a global network of Instructor Trainers and Examiners, offering mentorship and cross-agency opportunities to expand their professional reach.

 

[Edward3c]

There is a list of ISO, certified training agencies.

If you are not sure of the ISO standing of the agency, follow the link below.

Certification database

See all the certificates issued by Austrian Standards.

www.austrian-standards.at

Open the website and ensure that the right-hand option is selected type in the ISO number 24802-2 and click search.

A list of all the registered training agencies is listed. –

This is perhaps your best source to start with when checking agency credentials.

A little about ISC - International Scuba Certification / DiveISC.com

International Scuba Certification (ISC) and operating under DiveISC.com, is a dive training agency based in Sydney, Australia. It supports dive professionals by providing internationally recognized certification products (9 x ISO certifications), training materials, and credentials to certify new divers. The agency focuses on affordability, quality service, and empowering dive professionals to differentiate themselves in a competitive market.

DiveISC emphasizes innovation and customer-centric solutions, positioning itself as a viable alternative to larger training agencies. It also fosters a global network of Instructor Trainers and Examiners, offering mentorship and cross-agency opportunities to expand their professional reach.

Unfortunately, this will not provide a full list as other ISO certification bodies also issue SCUBA ISO’s, like SIS Certifications Pvt Ltd in India.