Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver?

[gcarter]

I'm with DevonDiver and mathauck0814 on this one.

It is rationalization all the way. At the end of the day, regardless of how benign some may tell you the dive is, it is in fact outside of your training. You have to ask yourself whether you are comfortable diving outside your training and experience.

If you are, good luck. I would not be your buddy or have you for mine.

Might you miss out on a cool experience? Sure. You would also be alive. Having a cool experience is not worth being dead.

It is supposed to be fun. It is not supposed to put you in situations you have not trained for.

Overly dramatic? Maybe. Maybe not. Do you want to trust to luck?

 

[pwl]

I'm finding it hard to picture the cave, based on the descriptions. Is it an overhead or not? i.e. Can the diver resort to immediate ascent to the surface at any dive during the dive, should they encounter a problem? Is it a cavern dive or not? i.e. is there risk of silting/loss of illumination leading to the diver being delayed/prevented from egressing (not surfacing) from the water when required?

here's a simple diagram of the cave system:

http://expeditionfleet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/chandelier-cave.jpg

you can find lots of other images with this google search []chandelier cave palau - Google Search


- the whole system is not very large - a few metres

- the total dive time (boat to boat) is usually about 30 min, tops, a lot because you do a lot of re-grouping and chatting when you surface in the chambers

- the cave is completely exposed to tide movement & there is no silt that you'd see in a "proper" cave

- light from the entrance is visible once you descend from the furthest air pocket : in fact most groups suggest turning lights OFF on exit to more easily orient towards the exit.

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

DD and pwl, thanks for your feedback. It's interesting to read the views of an experienced cave diver and of someone else who has actually been there. Of course, it would be even better to have the opinion of a cave diver who has been there...

it's not a "cave dive", in the sense that most cave divers would understand it.

- Losing orientation, buddy and the rest of the group e.g. because of silt-out

there is no silt, and the floor of the cave is about 8m from the water level.

- Dive light failure

as with a night dive, take a redundant light.

- Some emergency that can not be solved under water with my level of training / available gear, causing me to CESA (since no more buddy available), or being unable to find the exit and having to come up OOA

- Thus in both cases being 'stuck' in the chamber I'm in since exiting would require working dive gear and air (or would this not be the case and would a freediving exit be possible?)

CESA to surface with breathable air is possible in most of the cave. think of it as more like a series of swim throughs.
once there, you should wait for rescue OR in worst case attempt to skin dive from the cave. swim time from the furthest chamber to the exit is about 2-3 minutes, so you may have to make a series of skin-dive swims.

see my diagram link in previous post.

- assuming the swim-throughs are sufficiently large to pass side-by-side.

there is no part of the cave normally visited by tourists that you can't get 4 or 5 people side-by-side.

You could even say this is less risky then a high-current OW environment where you drift away from the boat - at least here they know where to come and get you, right?

i would agree with that - there is nowhere to get "lost" in this cave. if you're not on the boat when your group exits, there is very little area to search.



i would not recommend this dive for new OW divers; i would not recommend it for people who have a phobia of enclosed spaces.

it is considerably simpler than some of the high-current dives you experience in palau.

i would be comfortable taking adventures-in-diving students for an experience under instruction.

again - cave diving qual for this dive is so enormously over the top as to be laughable.

 

[DevonDiver]

I've done it a couple of times. Some factors are (I'm not saying they are mitigating. Just some observations) At any time, even from the last chamber, you can drop down without your light and see the blue glow of the exit DURING THE DAY. We did just that. I don't think you ever get even 100 feet, (maybe not much over half that) feet from the exit.

Provided (1) there is no silt-up and (2) the sun is shining and not hidden behind clouds. I've also got to wonder how the cave concerned changes seasonally - what happens to it (with all that heavy silt) during the monsoon.. or a flash flood?

The 4 chambers all have fresh air - and they are quite beautiful.

Personally, I wouldn't consider anything to be an air pocket (from a dive planning perspective) unless the air was safe and breathable. However, the issue remains that you cannot stay at the surface, breathing that air, all the way to the exit. Thus, you are trapped in the cave should your air expire - requiring a rescue operation to retrieve you. That may not come any time soon, if you buddy/guide is also a victim.

All that said however I did read about a dm that took some divers in it at night and he had a hell of a time finding his way out. He was disoriented and kept coming up in the same chamber (guess he needed to read about how to get out of a maze).

Most, if not all, student divers that come to me for wreck training show a tenancy to dramatically over-estimate the ease of navigation when visibility is lost. This is a learning point I normally resolve in a few minutes using a blacked-out mask.

Before attempting a dive like this - where navigational disorientation and loss of visibility is a risk - a diver should make an effort to understand what it feels like. Take a blindfold on your next scuba dive - set yourself some navigational challenges (i.e. 'find' a certain spot, 'escape' from a certain area, swim from 'A to B') whilst blindfolded. Learn your limitations in that respect - and then take that as a foundation for your risk assessments for overhead environments. Chances are, whilst blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to swim 10m in a straight line...

There are no scuba police, you don't need permission.

Absolutely. This isn't about permission. Neither is it about 'right' or 'wrong'.... it is simply about 'safe' or 'unsafe'.

In that respect, a lack of training creates a lack of risk awareness. That lack thus enables a process of negotiation/justification/rationalization to exist. The diver, not knowing the full scope of issues, finds it easy to debate themselves into a course of action which threatens their safety. It isn't helped when other divers have already done the same thing, gotten away with it, and support the rationalization. They confuse 'getting away with it' with safety - forgetting that any dive without complications is survivable..and thus attributing their survival to a 'safety level' or 'skill level' that doesn't actually exist. All that existed, on any given dive, was that nothing went wrong.


I have an analogy that reflects the 'you don't know what you don't know' issue with regards overhead environment training and diving...

You get given a small, fist-sized lump of metal. Not dangerous? You do a risk assessment: you must not drop it on your toes, or it will cause injury. You must not throw it at someone, because it is heavy enough to cause injury. Small risks that are easily mitigated with some prudence and carefulness. Thus, it's a safe item...benign and nothing you have to worry about. You can use it as a door-stop, book-end etc... let the kids play with it.

Now comes the education. The lump of metal is called a 'hand-grenade'....

The lesson being - it's easy to rationalize in favor of an activity, if you don't have the education/training to understand the full scope of the issues involved.

Numerous people have agree that this dive fits the definition of a 'cave-dive'. The safety recommendations attributed to cave dives are being ignored. Ask yourself why...

 

[gcarter]

<disclaimer>I watched a low-time rototiller turn the 3rd chamber into a silt out

the cave is completely exposed to tide movement & there is no silt that you'd see in a "proper" cave
...
there is no silt

Two posters, two diametrically opposed reports as to the presence of silt.

Exactly why you should never do "trust me" dives.

I will always - when it comes to my personal safety, my life - default to the most conservative position, as should IMHO all recreational divers.

YMMV

 

[TSandM]

I haven't ever seen this place, and I'm generally in favor of the Mexican cenote dives which Andy doesn't, I think, approve of.

But let me tell you a story of something that happened to some friends. There is a cave in Mexico called NoHoch. The entrance to NoHoch is a strange one, because the roof stays above the water line a LONG way back from the open cenote. Some friends of mine, at the end of a cave dive, were waiting for their friends to come out, so they decided to go swimming/snorkeling in the "open water" part of the overhead (in other words, under the rock roof, but with open air where they were, and open air all the way to the end of the roof).

They went in and were swimming around, and realized they'd gotten to where they weren't sure where the exit was. They really couldn't make out the dim light in the distance, and all around them was rock roof and dark water. There was no line, because you don't need any line when you're on the surface, right?

By the time they found the way out, they were thoroughly unnerved. They had an inexhaustible air supply, and all the water they could drink . . . but being lost in the dark is being lost in the dark, and they weren't very happy about it. I think they ended up with an entirely different appreciation for the risks of what they had lightheartedly done.

There are all kinds of dives being executed by all kinds of people, and those dives are billed by the folks offering them in all kinds of ways. I remember someone posting a description of a dive being offered to open water trained divers, that involved entering an overhead at more than 150 feet down . . . the dive op advertising the dive seemed to think it was just fine, because they weren't going to be down there that long, anyway.

Get all the data you can, and make the best informed decision you can make. Only you can do a proper risk assessment for yourself. I'm risk averse; I would not do what some other people would cheerfully do. Andy is worse than I am. You may decide we're convincing, or decide otherwise; just do it on good data.

 

[DevonDiver]

One thing is for certain - when he gets there, the dive operators will tell him it is safe. ker-ching! $$

Then, if he inquires about doing a Cavern Course... they'll tell him that's a great idea. ker-ching! Ker-ching! $$$$

Not that I'm cynical

But then... I've seen newly qualified OW divers being told "it's ok" to do 45m into the Blue Hole, Belize...or to penetrate the cargo deck of the Zenobia ferry, Cyprus at 38m because "they will be looked after"...or to do that 42m wall dive because "it's easy" and "conditions are great"... and many other crazy antics by money-grabbing dive operations.

I do agree with TS&M... I am pretty risk averse. In perspective, that's because I complete high-risk/low-tolerance dives... so my emphasis is always on reducing risk wherever and whenever you can. One thing that 20 years of diving has taught me, is that the basic rules and recommendations exist for good reasons. The process of negotiating against those recommendations is normally flawed and done for the wrong reasons.

When I run training courses, it typically only takes me 30 minutes underwater with a student to demonstrate the risks...and consequent value of safety principles. It's easy to show. Sadly, on the internet, it's impossible to prove such points and create such awareness.

I don't have a problem with cenotes dives.. or similar.... but I do believe that they require specific training. Yes, it may be 'over-training' given the complexity of x, y or z dive sites.... but when was 'over-training' (having more capability than the dive demands) ever a bad thing? The cavern course is a truly excellent training program. It's only taught by qualified cave divers (the only rec PADI course that makes such demands of its instructors) and it pays dividends in all other aspects of a divers capability and competence.

Despite the level of training provided, the cavern course comes with some very strict limitations. Those limitations tend to push 'cavern diving' into a zone that most other divers would happily do without specialist training: again, the product of risk un-awareness and the process of rationalization.

In the light zone? Happy Days!
Surface is 'nearby'? Easy!
No restrictions? Party on!
Little silt? Lets do it!

By that rationalization, there is simply never a need for the cavern course to exist. We know that's wrong.

My suggestion therefore, is for the OP to do a cavern course - he'll learn a bunch of stuff that'll improve all aspects of his diving... he'll feel confident and capable of doing the proposed dive in Palau... and he'll not have to rely on the suspect advice of local dive operations or strangers on the internet. In short... he can take personal responsibility for his diving, with the benefit of having educated himself of the real issues at stake.

It might be 'over-training' for the dive in question... but isn't it better to be over-trained, rather than under-trained? Dive within the limits of your training and experience - not at the limits, not beyond the limits. Simplistico!

I've seen the photos of the cave system (google link in an earlier post). From a personal note, all I can say is that I'd take that dive very seriously - and have some apprehension about doing it - certainly if it was conducted as a recreational, rather than technical, endeavor.

 

[gcarter]

Two posters, two diametrically opposed reports as to the presence of silt.

Exactly why you should never do "trust me" dives.

I will always - when it comes to my personal safety, my life - default to the most conservative position, as should IMHO all recreational divers.

YMMV

Don't you love people who respond to their own posts?

I have experienced a full silt out, more or less deliberately, in OW at about 3M depth. In a private lake with no boats, 3M from the surface, maybe 5M from the dock. Vis was terrible as it was, 1M tops, bottom silt layer was probably .5M deep. It didn't take much to stir it up. I didn't have the first clue how I would navigate if I needed to - I couldn't see my compass and my light was useless. KNOWING where I was, I waited until it started to settle. I could stay calm because I knew exactly where I was and how close the surface was, and that I could reach the surface easily any time I wanted.

Do you really want to try this in an unfamiliar confined environment without being trained / experienced in how to handle it?

 

[bracko]

it's a great dive and it'd be a pity if you missed out.

personally you don't see much difference between the first and third air pockets, so if you're overly concerned then just go into the first one, pop up then go back out for the muck dive around the area. you can still see light in the first airpocket so it's fairly easy to make your way out.

ask (quietly) to see the temple of doom... much better sea cave with a bit of hesitation i went into the temple to see the first turtle, it was amazing and has me keen to do my certification in at least cavern.

 

[farsidefan1]

Whoa, now the temple of doom I would not even consider without full cave training. You do know about the group of Japanese divers experience? I would not mention that dive in the same sentence with the chandalier dive. I see the chandalier cave\cavern as an extended swim through with extra bailout chambers. I have done several swim throughs that are more difficult to surface from. The Temple of Doom??? Well named. Let's drop that topic right now. I did not see any sign of silt in chandalier but as I said, on both my dives there I was with experienced divers so I can't say what a rookie could do. I tend to agree it is not subjct to silt and wonder if the other poster confused it with another dive. Please do not interpret my remarks as any kind of an assurance "all will be well". You are on your own. As I THINK "WHAT COULD GO WRONG" The following occur to me (and I would be the first to say listen to TS and Devon because they know more about what could go wrong than me. My only advantage is the "been there done that factor". If somebody has an attack of claustraphobia. Well hell. Somebody is in trouble! If somebody goes in at night they could well spend the entire night sitting on a cool rock shelf. Air will not be a problem. All the chambers have fresh air. That is a fact. I suppose if you got enouth deivers in the same chamber it could get pretty stale in there by morning. One of the times I did the dive it was during a good storm and I could still see the entrace/exit easily from the 4th chamber. Just leave off your light and you can see out. That is why I think of it as an extended swim through. In a swim through you are temporarily in an overhead environment.The distance between chambers and exits is no further than some (several ) swim throughs I've done. Any way , to the OP, don't do it if you have any trepidation about it. Don't do it if you have any claustraphobia issues. Don't do it if you are not fully comfortable with it. don't go in there without very experienced dive guide. Don't do it except at daylight. And remember, if anything goes bad wrong- you pay the big price. I still think some training would be helpfull but I personally don't think full cave dive training is necessary for that dive.

 

[Deep Water Dan]

The worst part about Chandelier Cave it that is costs you a real boat dive. I suppose if you're going to fly all the way to Palau only once you need to do it (like Jellyfish Lake, another dive I'll never do again), but frankly I wasn't all that impressed with either. I think I'd have rather done the Blue Corner again.

I just looked at my dive profile from Chandelier Cave, it never took longer than 2 1/2 minutes to get from cavern to cavern, and 9 minutes to swim all the way out from the last chamber.

You need to make your own decision based on what you're read here and your comfort level. To me, it seemed about as dangerous as diving in my bathtub with only the nightlight on.