Ccr Diver From Ohio Died In Ginnie Springs Today...

[Phil_C]

** MOD POST: **

Lets keep this to discussion of what we know, and what may have happened, and possible responses without wild speculation or off topic comments, off topic posts have been removed - Thanks Phil_C SB Moderator

 

[Jax]

Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on your ability to read the situation and act accordingly. If you have a buddy on CCR, they should tell you the procedure. If it's someone you come across in a cave and they're not necessarily acting what you would think normally, you can do just the opposite if you don't know what you're doing and just start pulling things and twisting things and shoving things where they don't belong.

Without getting too in depth, there are some rebreathers that to de-water the loop you have to do some acrobatic looking things. If you see this and assume they're in trouble and yank the loop out of their mouth and try and shove a regulator in their face you've just flooded their rebreather, made them severely negative, and placed them in a pretty precarious situation. You have to understand the failure modes of rebreathers and how to counteract them, and all this is done with experience diving with rebreather divers. With luck they'll have a BOV that should be as simple as flipping a lever or turning a switch. However if this isn't the case are you prepared to understand how their DSV works, are you prepared to judge whether or not they can overcome the CO2-induced urge to inhale long enough to get a reg in their mouth? What if they can't?

There's a whole myriad of things that need to be processed and understood before you can make a conscious decision about the best way to help a CCR diver. If you don't have the experience to make those sound judgements, it's potentially even more dangerous to act, even with the best of intentions. The real answer is to dive with CCR divers enough so that you can learn how various systems work, and how to best deal with problems within that framework. Simply throwing a long hose at someone without thinking is a bad idea.

When you're back in AZ let me know, we can meet up for coffee or something and I'll bring along a DSV and bailout valve or two and a couple counterlungs to show you the difference and why you need to understand what's going on so you can formulate the correct plan of action.

Thanks, @JohnnyC,

I have seen a few rebreathers and their owners were kind enough to discuss them.

No, I wouldn't just go up to somebody and start yanking gear. However, vacant eyes and inability to return standard "ok" signals give a big clue.

So far, I see loops that rotate a collar, some flip a switch, etc. Bottom line is do what seems best at the moment.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

When we were side mount and dove with back mount divers in mixed teams, we briefed them on our particular configuration and how to get gas if they needed it. We dove with a long hose on each tank so the advice was just take which ever one we were using at the time, we'd feed out the hose and get on our other one.

In the mixed team CC/OC diving we've done to date we've also briefed the divers we are with. Since our diluent tank is also our bailout gas on our Sidekick side mount rebreathers, we carry the reg for the bailout on a bungee necklace with the reg under our chin, loose enough to pull out of the bungee loop, so the advice we give in the event the diver needs gas from us is to take the bungee reg.

We also give a basic briefing on how the DSV works and ask that if they encounter us off the loop and we are not responsive to put an OC reg in our mouth, rather than try to put the DSV back in our mouth. Your reg, my reg, it doesn't really matter at that point, just try to get some gas in us. We also show them how to close the DSV (lever down in our case (which needs to be discussed as it is counter intuitive on the KISS) to prevent the loop from further flooding and losing all buoyancy. Personally, I'd have designed the KISS DSV so the lever is "up" and clearly in your face when the loop is closed, and "down" and pointing forward when the loop is open. The rationale in part is that "Up" is the norm for pre-dive and "down" is the norm for dive settings on most regulators with pre-dive/dive levers or switches.

We also show them the location of the inflator and dump valves on our standard side mount BCs.

We don't get into more detailed items like using the DSV to vent gas from the loop on ascent when we're off the loop, etc as there is a limit to what you can convey to a casual dive partner who isn't in your specific team and expect them to remember. In most cases Marci and I dive together so a third member on the team won't have a lead role anyway (unless we're both incapacitated) so mostly they just need a basic understanding of what's going on and maybe why it's being done that way. If it's someone we'll dive with more frequently, they'll get more mini-lessons spread over several pre-dive briefings. Most OC divers are interested in how CCR rebreathers work, so the information is well received and we generally try to de-mystify our particular rebreather rather than playing "dive god".

Obviously if a rebreather has a BOV, the briefing may need to be different, depending on the specific configuration, dil and bailout configuration, with perhaps a need to address things like how the BOV works to switch from CC to OC, the limited on board bailout, the off board bailout options, etc.

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Absent that kind of pre-dive briefing however, I tend to agree that an OC diver needs to just take what ever action they think is appropriate at the time. In most cases, doing something is probably better than doing nothing, even if what you do isn't exactly the right thing to do. J

Just be sure there's really a need for assistance before you try to render it. Just like you don't go straight to the Heimlich maneuver if a choking victim is still actively coughing and getting at least some air, if a rebreather diver is still actively working the problem, you probably don't want to rush in and do something drastic.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There's a lot of speculation here about hypercapnia (elevated CO2 levels) and the symptoms that can result.

It's probably one of the harder issues to recover from, as unless you recognize it early and get off the loop, once you get well into it, your breathing rate can become so high that a diver can blow through the open circuit bailout gas in a hurry. In addition, if the OC bailout regulator isn't delivering enough gas, it can continue to worsen the situation. Whether you are on CC or OC, there's also the issue of dead air space in the mouth, throat and esophagus, so when the breathing is rapid and shallow, not much CO2 (or O2 for that matter) gets exchanged as not much fresh gas actually gets all the way into the lungs. On many rebreathers rapid breathing can result in insufficient dwell time in the scrubber for the CO2 to be removed, so over breathing the loop can cause CO2 issues even when the scrubber is doing it's job (or trying to), If the scrubber is on the verge of breaking through with elevated CO2 levels anyway, the rapid breathing caused by hypercapnia can quickly push it way over the top. You can also have issues with CO2 if a mushroom valve in the loop fails, allowing gas to move back and forth in the loop without being routed through the scrubber. The mushroom valves are critical to ensuring that all the gas follows a one way path through the loop. If you're immediately re-inhaling the gas you just expired, it never gets scrubbed and the CO level will rapidly increase.

The thing is however that in most cases things don't go wrong immediately - in most cases you're usually going to have a few minutes warning, or the problem will be something obvious like a stuck solenoid injecting O2 into the loop. In that case, at depth, you might not have minutes, but even a spike above a PPO2 of 2.0 won't cause you to tox immediately - you've still got time to get off the loop, take a couple sanity breaths and then work the problem.

If I don't feel right, I'm going to get off the loop immediately and either abort the dive, or figure out what's going on, fix the problem and attempt to recover the loop, ensure the problem has been resolved and then decide to continue or abort based on what caused the problem.

That means if I'm feeling short of breath, and/or I am experiencing anxiety, etc, I'm probably also going to bailout to OC immediately. However, at that moment, I don't know if it's a problem with the loop causing the symptoms, or if the symptoms are being caused by a heath condition. At the point I decide to bailout the cause doesn't matter - I don't feel right, so I'm bailing out.

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What I'm getting at here is that I have not seen any clear evidence at this point that the victim bailed out due to an issue with the rebreather.

Given that the situation did not appear to improve on OC, a medical cause for the bailout is probably more likely and I'm not inclined to blame the rebreather for causing hypercapnia if it was in fact present.

I also recognize that I am not a 23 year old Marine anymore, that scuba stuff is heavy and that gearing up and getting you, your equipment (including what might be substantial amounts of bailout gas) as well as a DPV to the water and squaring it all away can be a lot of work and can potentially leave a diver stressed even before the dive starts. That's one of the things I am very cautious about before commencing the actual dive - I want to ensure I feel right and that I'm physically and mentally in the game.

Why? because I'm 51 years old, I've lost a technical diving buddy to an in water heart attack, and I've been on scene for the failed rescue of another diver who suffered a heart attack on a OW dive. I don't delude myself in any way shape or form into believing that a heart attack is survivable for a diver underwater. If I have a heart attack underwater, I'm probably going to die and it's just my time to go.

It's one of the risks I willingly accept as a middle aged technical / cave diver and it's one of the things that should be at least considered and ruled out before placing blame elsewhere anytime a middle aged diver dies during a dive.

 

[The Chairman]

Let no good deed go unpunished. There's a pretty vicious attack on Ted, the instructor that tried to assist the CCR diver elsewhere on the interwebs. I'm not sure what the motive is, but I find it alarming that anyone would attack a Good Samaritan for no good reason.

As an instructor, my duty is first and foremost to my students. I will try to assist any other diver I can as long as it does not endanger my students. Apparently, the episode initiated well beyond the Maple Leaf and it's pretty silty back there as not too many go that route. Ted's group encountered a rather large silt out before they encountered the victim. He tried to help, but he had three other living divers to worry about at that point. When the diver became completely unresponsive, they were still in a cloud of silt, they had the deceased's buddy who was probably in an altered frame of mind as well as his two students who would also be a bit freaked out by all of this. He had to make a choice to either endanger the entire group or to leave an unresponsive diver behind. The living must take precedence over the dead. There was no reason for Ted to allow this tragedy to multiply into more deaths to satisfy some need to be a super hero. I don't know Ted, but from my standpoint, it was a gutsy call that took courage to make.

Like myself, the people spreading this vicious attack were not there. Second guessing an instructor who had such a tough decision to make with this passive aggressive crap is horrible. There's no need to bolster your own reputation by tearing down others. Ted is going to have to live with this incident and all the "what ifs" for the rest of his life. There's no reason to get petty and kick him while he's vulnerable.

For the record, the victim and his buddy were on rebreathers. Ted and his crew were on OC. We know what the rebreather was and are waiting for it to be announced publicly. Overheard dialog from the attending paramedics suggests that this might be a heart attack rather than a rebreather failure. I have never heard anyone surviving a heart attack at depth, much less that far back in a cave.

 

[bamafan]

Bill Rennaker survived a heart attack in a cave. Linda told me the doctor told him the only reason he survived was from the elevated PO2 level. At least thatis what I was told.

 

[kelemvor]

Posts on CDF indicate it was an o2ptima (diverite) rebreather and that Ted McCoy was the person who attempted the rescue.

source citation: Cave Diver's Forum

I haven't stumbled across the attack you mention, Netdoc. Any chance for a citation since you brought it up?


Frustrating when people are saying "don't post without the details" and then the people with those details don't post the details.

 

[The_Aviator_1]

First off I would like to offer my condolences to the family. As I used to be a field training officer for new paramedics in Florida, I'm well aware of the current curriculum. I know for a fact most of the paramedics in this state are woefully under-educated in anything related to diving emergencies (there is a brief paragraph on DCS and AGE). They will all be able to intubate and treat cardiac issues, but very very few would be well versed in hypercapnia vs Oxtox or any other issues. For the paramedics to state they suspect a heart attack would be very much overstepping the boundaries of their education and training in this instance unless they happened to be DMT's as well. I would wait for any results made public before speculating.

 

[rjack321]

I haven't stumbled across the attack you mention, Netdoc. Any chance for a citation since you brought it up?

Various places on facebook. No I'm not going to link you or anyone else to them as they are baseless blathering about "if this and that" by people who weren't there.

 

[karstdvr]

As a family member of the aforementioned diver,

Please refrain from the use of inappropriate comments about the matter of his death. Our family is grieving heavily and are trying to make accommodations and more importantly find out what happened. This is the only article we can find on the incident and it is being read by many of my family members.

I will not mention my Uncle's name but he was a very liked individual who had a very great passion for diving. I don't believe I could think of a bad thing to say about the man and we are deeply saddened.

My uncle has performed hundreds possibly thousands of dives. Whether it was human-error or equipment malfunction please keep inappropriate comments away from this blog; once again, many many family members are reading this trying to understand how this happened.

If anyone has any news on what exactly happened please contact me privately.

Thank you for your consideration,
Pat

Thank you for your posting and condolences to the family. I agree, there are huge amounts of speculation and conjecture, and consider it that. I think people who were eye witness participants need to come forward with valuable information to determine what happened in this tragic accident. I hope you find the answers you are searching for, and closure.