Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[LiteHedded]

Because people lie like there is no tomorrow about these things and there is way too much hearsay involved in many of these "standards" violations.

if we're seeing it, the agency board members are seeing it. the point is it's extremely well known and beating the procedure for reporting these things into the ground is just noise.

you think GDI doesn't know ****ty classes are being taught? we see it, so does he. it's prompted this thread
you think they have never seen a bad class taught and are just flabbergasted that we're bringing it up? hence the need for concrete documentation to take such an absurd complaint seriously? get real.

the instructors posting in this thread are just as capable of reporting these things as we are

 

[ucfdiver]

Why are you? I certainly care enough to propose solutions and not just bitch about the hopeless situation.

Have they? Bitching about how horrid things are is not the same as reporting it to the agency. Telling Rick, Jim or any other officer within the agencies that 'so and so is a horrible instructor and how on earth do you let him get away with this crap?' is not a report: it's a bitch. Bitching about something is easy, as you demonstrate to us on a timely basis. They need written reports. Reports with facts and not mere hearsay. Just because you read it here or on Facebook does not (oh the horrors) make it true or you a witness to the facts. The cave community is often it's own worst enemy. We spread rumor and innuendo about this person and that without ever researching the truth. I just heard a lie repeated about Jim Wyatt the other day. Rather than simply repeat the lie, I discussed it with Jim and found his truth far different than the one I was told. In sussing out the real truth, I found three basic camps: those who liked Jim, those who resented Jim for petty reasons and finally those who had an open mind about it one way or the other. Jim's friends and the open minders both seemed to agree on Jim's version of events. Those who didn't like Jim for what appear to be petty reasons think he should drawn, quartered and then re-animated so they could draw, quarter and then piss on his remains. It's stupid. It's inane. It's the cave community. Most on either side of the 'story' only have hearsay and innuendo from others to go on but that doesn't stop them from spreading their version like it's Gospel. BTW, the few eyewitnesses also agree with Jim's version of the story. Make no doubt about it, I am friends with Jim as well as people on both sides of this story. I have my own thoughts on what happened, but since I was not a witness to these events, you'll find me silent when it comes to discussing it except with the actual witnesses. I don't like the gossip, lies and innuendo that are a part and parcel of the cave community so I won't perpetuate it. Moreover, I'll gladly take exception when I see it happening and especially so here.

So there's no question in anyone's mind: If you see a problem and don't document and report it properly then YOU are a part of the problem. If you make up problems for whatever reason or simply regurgitate what others tell you, then YOU too are a part of the problem. Stop silting out the interwebs with bitching and gossip. What about this do you disagree with?

Jim and Rick, how many official reports have been made to the NSS-CDS or the NACD in the past year?

Pete, with all due respect, you keep ignoring the facts and pretending like they don't exist. Your gossip and chicken little name calling is an effort to mask the fact that you're choosing to remain ignorant of the facts here. I PM'ed you an account of when I was taking an apprentice class with the NACD president at that time and we crossed another NACD instructor teaching a CCR class kneeling on the ground tying in jump spools. I gave you a first hand account of an intro to cave class I personally took where the minimum in water time was not met, and told you I relayed that to the NACD president at that time. Is as first hand account what you're considering gossip here? My apologies for not carrying a camera every single dive.

Jim posted he had 5 awful CDS instructors in mind. I PM'ed him 4 guesses and got 3 of the 5 right, with my 4th one someone he wasn't familiar with who I had seen teach at Little River. This isn't because we pal around together and share opinions, I've spoken in person with Jim maybe a half dozen times in my life and we've never dove together.

Students won't file complaint forms because they're scared that their name will get drug through the mud. Edd Sorenson has tried multiple times to get students to report violations but they always back out, ask him about it if you don't believe me. I agree we can't take every single word of mouth story and can an instructor for it, but when multiple people can play pick the ****ty instructor and get over half of their guesses to overlap, it's pretty clear there's an issue. If you want to wait for video evidence for every single violation, then I suggest you just say you're cool with how things are now rather than resorting to name calling. Personally, I'd like to see re-certification of instructors, I'd like to see notes on a student shared between instructors so someone taking Apprentice can read what their intro instructor told them to work on (and see that, if they suck, the previous instructor didn't even mention it), I'd like to see an intro to tech course requirement before taking a course in the overhead like cavern, I'd like to see a reasonable fitness requirement set forth, I'd like to see annual medicals (would you be alarmed to know we have cave instructors who take insulin?), I'd like to see more specific standards happen so it's even possible to report a violation, etc.

 

[nakatomi]

you think GDI doesn't know ****ty classes are being taught? we see it, so does he. it's prompted this thread
you think they have never seen a bad class taught and are just flabbergasted that we're bringing it up? hence the need for concrete documentation to take such an absurd complaint seriously? get real

That's not the point, my point was that it is important to be a witness, not somebody who heard something from somebody who heard from his friend who saw something.
When you see something you think is not right, by all means report it to the agencies or (if nothing is done about it) here.

But spreading third party hearsay stories about alleged standards violations is not helpful.

 

[LiteHedded]

Pete, with all due respect, you keep ignoring the facts and pretending like they don't exist. Your gossip and chicken little name calling is an effort to mask the fact that you're choosing to remain ignorant of the facts here. I PM'ed you an account of when I was taking an apprentice class with the NACD president at that time and we crossed another NACD instructor teaching a CCR class kneeling on the ground tying in jump spools. I gave you a first hand account of an intro to cave class I personally took where the minimum in water time was not met, and told you I relayed that to the NACD president at that time.

Jim posted he had 5 awful CDS instructors in mind. I PM'ed him 4 guesses and got 3 of the 5 right, with my 4th one someone he wasn't familiar with. This isn't because we pal around together and share opinions, I've spoken in person with Jim maybe a half dozen times in my life and we've never dove together.

Students won't file complaint forms because they're scared that their name will get drug through the mud. Edd Sorenson has tried multiple times to get students to report violations but they always back out, ask him about it if you don't believe me. I agree we can't take every single word of mouth story and can an instructor for it, but when multiple people can play pick the ****ty instructor and get over half of their guesses to overlap, it's pretty clear there's an issue.

you think edd hasnt seen horrible classes at his 24/7 JB shift? he's more than capable of filing his own complaints

drumming individual instructors out of the agency for teaching bad classes obviously isn't going to happen. so restructure the standards, make instructors renew, make students evaluate their instructors. do something

 

[PfcAJ]

But spreading third party hearsay stories about alleged standards violations is not helpful.

If it helps a potential student not pick a ****ty instructor then I consider it quite helpful.

 

[ucfdiver]

you think edd hasnt seen horrible classes at his 24/7 JB shift? he's more than capable of filing his own complaints

drumming individual instructors out of the agency for teaching bad classes obviously isn't going to happen. so restructure the standards, make instructors renew, make students evaluate their instructors. do something

If I were Edd I'd stop reporting it. He's already yanked a few nearly dead students out of the cave during their cave class and nothing was done about that, so why waste the paper? Besides, without video people like Pete would say he's just gossiping.

 

[nakatomi]

If it helps a potential student not pick a ****ty instructor then I consider it quite helpful.

I would agree, but the problem is that the cave gossip is not restricted to crappy instructors.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Jim and Rick, how many official reports have been made to the NSS-CDS or the NACD in the past year?

One for the NSS-CDS in the past year. One in 2013.

Both times we assigned an investigating committee.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, with all due respect,

Besides, without video people like Pete would say he's just gossiping.

Twisting my words shows no respect.

you keep ignoring the facts and pretending like they don't exist.

Actually, the opposite is true. I just called Jim Wyatt and Rick Murcar. Did you realize that there was only ONE formal complaint filed with the NSS-CDS last year and as best as Rick can remember, NONE with the NACD. One and none. They only have one complaint each for 2015, but in the entirety of 2014 they have one and none. That's pathetic in light of all the reporting you claim is going on.

I'm calling BS here with one and none. Complete and utter BS. Nothing is getting done because YOU'RE not reporting it. Those are facts, dude, not conjecture and certainly not gossip. One and none so own it! Bitching to the agency is not the same as reporting it. The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You're crazy if you think what you're doing is working! If you report it, you need to be willing to back up your accusations with facts, photos and other eye witnesses. This (s)he said/(s)he said crap is just more BS and there can't be any due process. There's no way they're going to kick out an instructor just because you don't like them. Hell, they won't kick them because they don't like them either and that's a good thing. There needs to be due process so that the gossipers can't run out people they just don't like.

There will be no action until you get off of your collective butts and take some action. Your current inaction is speaking volumes at the moment. One and none. Indeed.

Your gossip and chicken little name calling is an effort to mask the fact that you're choosing to remain ignorant of the facts here.

Did I hit a nerve here? You helped make this bed, now it's yours to lie in. The agencies' hands are effectively tied if you refuse to file a formal complaint and then back it up.

 

[LiteHedded]

Twisting my words shows no respect.

Actually, the opposite is true. I just called Jim Wyatt and Rick Murcar. Did you realize that there was only ONE formal complaint filed with the NSS-CDS last year and as best as Rick can remember, NONE with the NACD. One and none. They only have one complaint each for 2015, but in the entirety of 2014 they have one and none. That's pathetic in light of all the reporting you claim is going on.

I'm calling BS here with one and none. Complete and utter BS. Nothing is getting done because YOU'RE not reporting it. Those are facts, dude, not conjecture and certainly not gossip. One and none so own it! Bitching to the agency is not the same as reporting it. The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You're crazy if you think what you're doing is working! If you report it, you need to be willing to back up your accusations with facts, photos and other eye witnesses. This (s)he said/(s)he said crap is just more BS and there can't be any due process. There's no way they're going to kick out an instructor just because you don't like them. Hell, they won't kick them because they don't like them either and that's a good thing. There needs to be due process so that the gossipers can't run out people they just don't like.

There will be no action until you get off of your collective butts and take some action. Your current inaction is speaking volumes at the moment. One and none. Indeed.

Did I hit a nerve here? You helped make this bed, now it's yours to lie in. The agencies' hands are effectively tied if you refuse to file a formal complaint and then back it up.

you've done it pete! with the trademark NetDoc wit and wisdom we've all come to expect. you've won the thread.

it's OUR fault these agencies are churning out crap instructors! their hands are tied until someone can prove to them there are bad instructors in their midst!
everyone go home here. pete has hit the nail FIRMLY on the head from his perch in key largo from whence he sees everything so clearly