Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[TSandM]

GUE Fundamentals is a recreational diving class. So is UTD Essentials, and I believe their "Extreme scuba makeover" class teaches buoyancy, trim and propulsion skills as well.

I worked with a young diver this last week who had been certified somewhere back East. His OW instructors were cave divers. He knew exactly how he should be trimmed out (although his equipment was not balanced to permit it) and he had a very good start on a competent frog kick. All it takes is being taught by people who know . . . and who CARE.

 

[boulderjohn]

GUE Fundamentals is a recreational diving class. So is UTD Essentials, and I believe their "Extreme scuba makeover" class teaches buoyancy, trim and propulsion skills as well.

I worked with a young diver this last week who had been certified somewhere back East. His OW instructors were cave divers. He knew exactly how he should be trimmed out (although his equipment was not balanced to permit it) and he had a very good start on a competent frog kick. All it takes is being taught by people who know . . . and who CARE.

Yes, I should have included them. They all ultimately do the same thing in the context of this thread--make it unnecessary for a cave/cavern instructor to spend a lot of time teaching those skills to students coming to them for cave/cavern training.

I would like to repeat something I said before, about being a recreational instructor who had never seen the skills mentioned here. Two years ago I wrote a description of the recreational course that teaches those skills and sent it to the person in our shop who sends out the newsletters to customers. He decided that it needed a picture. He saw the word "buoyancy" in the course description and, being an instructor, he knew what that meant. He therefore inserted a stock photo of someone doing the hover in a Buddha position. He had no idea I meant something else, and he could not imagine a higher level of buoyancy control. Of course, that negated every word of the description I had written to anyone who knew what the course was supposed to be.

 

[The Chairman]

You want proof of instructors still violating rules? I have PLENTY. NAUI Instructor doing Cave1 and Cave2 back-to-back (despite the 25-dive minimum)....PADI Tec instructors doing ALL of the dives in one day....students flutter kicking exclusively in Cave training and still passing....getting pegged to ceilings and needing rescue and still passing. And you have these instructors in YOUR AGENCY.

You've undoubtedly reported each and every egregious violation and backed it up with evidence, right? You've then allowed the investigators time to do their job and decide if they actually had enough evidence to go on, right?

That's a big problem. Everyone wants to slam the agency when they should be slamming themselves. Opposite the Chicken Littles who jump to every conclusion imagineable are the WHOgivesAcrap Owls. The first alienate themselves by accusing every instructor they don't like based on hearsay, misunderstandings and little else. The latter see problems but simply can't be bothered with documenting the facts and getting them to the right people. Which is worse? The Chicken Littles are easy to spot as they run all over the place making a fool of themselves. The WHOgivesAcrap Owls just sit there and throw in a comment every now and then and so go largely unnoticed. I certainly don't want to be either. The only obvious infraction I have ever witnessed I tried to report and was rebuffed. I learned a bit about how to go about it for the next time if/when I witness another infraction. I would certainly love to see the process streamlined and promoted. We don't need to turn into Nazi Germany, where the only way we can prove our commitment is to turn in our friends and even kin. But we do need to make a collective commitment to clean up our house.

So, YES, they want proof of what you think you saw. Not just your word/their word. Take a picture. Get a statement. Give them something to work with. The ball is in your court.

 

[LiteHedded]

You've undoubtedly reported each and every egregious violation and backed it up with evidence, right? You've then allowed the investigators time to do their job and decide if they actually had enough evidence to go on, right?

That's a big problem. Everyone wants to slam the agency when they should be slamming themselves. Opposite the Chicken Littles who jump to every conclusion imagineable are the WHOgivesAcrap Owls. The first alienate themselves by accusing every instructor they don't like based on hearsay, misunderstandings and little else. The latter see problems but simply can't be bothered with documenting the facts and getting them to the right people. Which is worse? The Chicken Littles are easy to spot as they run all over the place making a fool of themselves. The WHOgivesAcrap Owls just sit there and throw in a comment every now and then and so go largely unnoticed. I certainly don't want to be either. The only obvious infraction I have ever witnessed I tried to report and was rebuffed. I learned a bit about how to go about it for the next time if/when I witness another infraction. I would certainly love to see the process streamlined and promoted. We don't need to turn into Nazi Germany, where the only way we can prove our commitment is to turn in our friends and even kin. But we do need to make a collective commitment to clean up our house.

So, YES, they want proof of what you think you saw. Not just your word/their word. Take a picture. Get a statement. Give them something to work with. The ball is in your court.

why are you even participating in this thread? many of the people posting here have reported things to the agencies. maybe you should just sticky this post at the top so you can keep making it over and over again.

 

[The Chairman]

why are you even participating in this thread?

Why are you? I certainly care enough to propose solutions and not just bitch about the hopeless situation.

many of the people posting here have reported things to the agencies. maybe you should just sticky this post at the top so you can keep making it over and over again.

Have they? Bitching about how horrid things are is not the same as reporting it to the agency. Telling Rick, Jim or any other officer within the agencies that 'so and so is a horrible instructor and how on earth do you let him get away with this crap?' is not a report: it's a bitch. Bitching about something is easy, as you demonstrate to us on a timely basis. They need written reports. Reports with facts and not mere hearsay. Just because you read it here or on Facebook does not (oh the horrors) make it true or you a witness to the facts. The cave community is often it's own worst enemy. We spread rumor and innuendo about this person and that without ever researching the truth. I just heard a lie repeated about Jim Wyatt the other day. Rather than simply repeat the lie, I discussed it with Jim and found his truth far different than the one I was told. In sussing out the real truth, I found three basic camps: those who liked Jim, those who resented Jim for petty reasons and finally those who had an open mind about it one way or the other. Jim's friends and the open minders both seemed to agree on Jim's version of events. Those who didn't like Jim for what appear to be petty reasons think he should drawn, quartered and then re-animated so they could draw, quarter and then piss on his remains. It's stupid. It's inane. It's the cave community. Most on either side of the 'story' only have hearsay and innuendo from others to go on but that doesn't stop them from spreading their version like it's Gospel. BTW, the few eyewitnesses also agree with Jim's version of the story. Make no doubt about it, I am friends with Jim as well as people on both sides of this story. I have my own thoughts on what happened, but since I was not a witness to these events, you'll find me silent when it comes to discussing it except with the actual witnesses. I don't like the gossip, lies and innuendo that are a part and parcel of the cave community so I won't perpetuate it. Moreover, I'll gladly take exception when I see it happening and especially so here.

So there's no question in anyone's mind: If you see a problem and don't document and report it properly then YOU are a part of the problem. If you make up problems for whatever reason or simply regurgitate what others tell you, then YOU too are a part of the problem. Stop silting out the interwebs with bitching and gossip. What about this do you disagree with?

Jim and Rick, how many official reports have been made to the NSS-CDS or the NACD in the past year?

 

[bamafan]

The solution is really simple. It worked really well in Germany. We just need people to be a "Blockwart".

Blockleiter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can say what you want but as sad as it is nothing is going to change. There were crappy cave divers 25 years ago and crappy ones today. The thing with today is the sport has grown so there are more of them. Also with all the GoPro's and YouTube you are seeing more of it. I no longer get upset or even try to say anything. Just go dive the river caves and it is way more peaceful and there are a lot less idiots to bother you. Plus you never know what you might find that others have missed.

As a side note I have figured out a way to repair the caves on the pond as they never flood anymore because of the dam. I think just towing this behind me on a few dives will take care of all the marks.

 

[LiteHedded]

Why are you? I certainly care enough to propose solutions and not just bitch about the hopeless situation.

Have they? Bitching about how horrid things are is not the same as reporting it to the agency. Telling Rick, Jim or any other officer within the agencies that 'so and so is a horrible instructor and how on earth do you let him get away with this crap?' is not a report: it's a bitch. Bitching about something is easy, as you demonstrate to us on a timely basis. They need written reports. Reports with facts and not mere hearsay. Just because you read it here or on Facebook does not (oh the horrors) make it true or you a witness to the facts. The cave community is often it's own worst enemy. We spread rumor and innuendo about this person and that without ever researching the truth. I just heard a lie repeated about Jim Wyatt the other day. Rather than simply repeat the lie, I discussed it with Jim and found his truth far different than the one I was told. In sussing out the real truth, I found three basic camps: those who liked Jim, those who resented Jim for petty reasons and finally those who had an open mind about it one way or the other. Jim's friends and the open minders both seemed to agree on Jim's version of events. Those who didn't like Jim for what appear to be petty reasons think he should drawn, quartered and then re-animated so they could draw, quarter and then piss on his remains. It's stupid. It's inane. It's the cave community. Most on either side of the 'story' only have hearsay and innuendo from others to go on but that doesn't stop them from spreading their version like it's Gospel. BTW, the few eyewitnesses also agree with Jim's version of the story. Make no doubt about it, I am friends with Jim as well as people on both sides of this story. I have my own thoughts on what happened, but since I was not a witness to these events, you'll find me silent when it comes to discussing it except with the actual witnesses. I don't like the gossip, lies and innuendo that are a part and parcel of the cave community so I won't perpetuate it. Moreover, I'll gladly take exception when I see it happening and especially so here.

So there's no question in anyone's mind: If you see a problem and don't document and report it properly then YOU are a part of the problem. If you make up problems for whatever reason or simply regurgitate what others tell you, then YOU too are a part of the problem. Stop silting out the interwebs with bitching and gossip. What about this do you disagree with?

Jim and Rick, how many official reports have been made to the NSS-CDS or the NACD in the past year?

have I not proposed solutions? I believe I have.
how often are you up here cave diving? i'm not sure you're even being affected by any of this so your grandstanding and pontificating are just noise.

 

[PfcAJ]

Why again does one have to be an eye witness? I don't understand why that's the gold standard here.

 

[LiteHedded]

Why again does one have to be an eye witness? I don't understand why that's the gold standard here.

guy at peacock this weekend telling his student it was ok he kept flutter kicking in the cave because his fintips didn't happen to stir anything up.
I should've marched right over to him in my red drysuit and wkpp patch and asked him for his name and agency. that would've gone over like a pregnant pole-vaulter. yea right.

 

[nakatomi]

Why again does one have to be an eye witness? I don't understand why that's the gold standard here.

Because people lie like there is no tomorrow about these things and there is way too much hearsay involved in many of these "standards violations".