Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[victorzamora]

You've undoubtedly reported each and every egregious violation and backed it up with evidence, right? You've then allowed the investigators time to do their job and decide if they actually had enough evidence to go on, right?

Actually, I did. I even had video evidence of two incidents. I've also been communicating with both Rick Murcar and Jim Wyatt, along with several other fairly high-profile divers. If you re-read this thread (starting on Pg19) you'll see I reference the history, as well as outing myself as someone not willing to come out in the open and testify. Jim Wyatt, Training Director of the agency that housed multiple instructors I was reporting, said directly that he didn't blame me for not wanting to. In our conversations, I explained to him that a lot of the people I personally saw violating standards (and even had video evidence of it) were in places that made it bad for me to come out publicly. So, I send messages. With evidence when required.

Also, I'm not about stringing up the agencies. Without them, it'd be much worse than it is. I applaud the efforts they make. However, what I will not stand for is grandstanding over the high quality of one particular agency....which I have called out. The other thing is fixes that clearly won't work.

My point was that fixing the quality of cave divers isn't just about tightening standards, forcing longer hours, limiting the number of instructors, or charging more for courses. The fixes that might work are recertification and really holding instructors accountable. It was told to me, directly, by one of the higher-ups in one of the big-name dive training agencies, that they were very aware of the low quality of various instructors. They asked me to name the ones I was talking about, I responded, and I was basically told "Yeah, we know." Honestly, I can't blame them either. Some of those people are friends. Some of those people have been friends since before I was born. Some have THEIR names on their instructor cards. All of them had their agency's name on their instructor cards. It's hard to come down hard on somebody, especially in such a small community. "Fans" of those people would be outraged and would lash back. Legally, you could be sued for slander, libel, losses, unfair treatment, and a multitude of other things without EVERY duck being in a row.

However, the blame lies not with me. The blame lies with students that know better, and predominantly lies with instructors that know better. I am not perfect....but I try my best. I do what I can, as a new member in this group of people, to help out as I can. My main method of help? Right now it's by bettering myself and mentoring those newer than me what little I can. Soon, I hope it can be even more mentorship as I have better skills to pass along. In the mean time, I'd like to help by not damaging the caves while I work on my technique. I care. The blame lies with those that don't.

 

[WhiteSands]

Seriously? Have you looked at cavern requirements? Do you think a typical AOW diver can come into a cavern class and learn for the first time how to do a frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick, helicopter turn, and really solid buoyancy and trim in addition to learning all the cave-related skills that comprise 90% of the requirements in the typical time allotted to a cavern course?

Agree that the expectation to turn out cave ready students after a few days of Cavern class, even if all those skills were taught in detail, is not realistic.

When I took fundies, there was an OW and an AOW student in my class. We spent 3 full pool sessions just on stability and propulsion alone. Although the 2 students showed a big difference from before/after the class, the 4 day course just doesn't give enough time for someone from a purely recreational background to reach a level good enough for a GUE Tech Pass (the basic requirement for GUE for advancing to a Cave and Tech course).

There are outliers of course (ex-competitive swimmers, professional DMs, instructors, students who have received similar training before or had Tech experience from other agencies, etc) but it is rare to hear of someone getting a Fundies Tech pass on first try coming from a purely recreational background without prior training. And this seems to be the norm.

Most of my friends spend a lot of time at the pool after Fundies just practicing "boring" stuff like kicks, Basic 5, S drills, valve drills, ascents and descents etc. For some its been 4 months of hard work from getting a Fundies Recreational pass rating and they still are not ready for an upgrade.

I feel that this is the kind of commitment and effort it takes to be really good at your fundamental skills for most people, and I am just not sure everyone is willing to make the effort to get there.

 

[GDI]

............

Jim and Rick, how many official reports have been made to the NSS-CDS or the NACD in the past year?

Within the past year I do not know of any officially reported standards violation claims. This year one such claim is under investigation. Like the NSS-CDS, the NACD uses a committee to review such claims. IT IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY

If a claim is made to the NACD, it is investigated, that is our policy. Go ahead and challenge me because on my watch this most certainly will be done. BUT keep in mind that If the reporting party doesn't participate by providing the requested information such as date, time, location name of witnesses and type of reported violation then how far can one expect the investigation go?

The agencies have limited ability to pursue claims of this nature, if the reporting party decides not to see it through, fails to produce witnesses or facts. if the witnesses decide not to become involved then how can any sort of administrative action be taken?

Also keep in mind that the proposed violator has the right to defend themselves and make statements about the situation. If they choose not participate or ignore the request for information to be provided they will be faced with corrective administrative and or disciplinary action.

So where do we go from here? Is it now a See Something Say Something Community?

---------- Post added March 31st, 2015 at 12:52 AM ----------

Pete,

There isn't any information on the CDS or NACD website on how to report a training violation.

.

Noted

 

[laurin]

Most of my friends spend a lot of time at the pool after Fundies just practicing "boring" stuff like kicks, Basic 5, S drills, valve drills, ascents and descents etc. For some its been 4 months of hard work from getting a Fundies Recreational pass rating and they still are not ready for an upgrade.

I feel that this is the kind of commitment and effort it takes to be really good at your fundamental skills for most people, and I am just not sure everyone is willing to make the effort to get there.

This actually brought to my mind the assertions almost everywhere that not everybody can become a cave diver; just google for the phrase "cave diving is not for everyone". I think a step ahead would be for all cave/tech diving agencies to adopt this sort of preliminary screening system. I believe most instructors would be happy to teach students who have passed a known bar, even when that would mean less students for them.

//LN

 

[nakatomi]

Perhaps your standards are not high enough then. I can't make a dive at Ginnie without seeing things that blow my mind. Unless I'm diving at night and have the cave to myself, every single dive last year had someone doing something that I would have failed a student for. My last dive at ginnie... Two divers at Hill 400, both on CCR. One of them with both dangling backup lights, lit. One dragging 6' of line from his reel in his right drysuit pocket and his buddy dragging all 7' of his bailout reg hose behind him. That's just one dive out of 100. If you're saying you don't see anything grave, then either you have really bad eyesight or you're borderline one of the problem divers we're discussing.

Please don't assume anything about my standards without ever having met me.
First of all, I'm sure we both remember how well your last report to the CDS went and it goes to show that the whole topic of judging the actions of others is not always easy and clear cut. The standards violations that were alleged in your report turned out not to be any, the end result was that someone was bad mouthed on the forums when he had in fact saved the day.

As to the crappy divers you describe, that's not what I was talking about and what the last section of the thread was about. It was talked about witnessing standards violations during training, not about crappy divers or even borderline crappy instruction.

Open a thread about divers becoming complacent, especially once they use a DPV, stages and especially a CCR, and I will be happy to chime in. I've seen a lot of that happen.

 

[karstdvr]

. I can't make a dive at Ginnie without seeing things that blow my mind. Unless I'm diving at night and have the cave to myself, every single dive last year had someone doing something that I would have failed a student for. My last dive at ginnie... Two divers at Hill 400, both on CCR. One of them with both dangling backup lights, lit. One dragging 6' of line from his reel in his right drysuit pocket and his buddy dragging all 7' of his bailout reg hose behind him. That's just one dive out of 100. If you're saying you don't see anything grave, then either you have really bad eyesight or you're borderline one of the problem divers we're discussing.

That is why Ginnie is the most beat up cave in cave diving.

 

[The Chairman]

There isn't any information on the CDS or NACD website on how to report a training violation.

I looked for it on lots of agency websites and I just don't see it either. I get that it's a negative nancy kind of link when they are trying to promote diving in a positive light. I would love to see a thread with each Agency's Standards clearly spelled out and a link on how to report violations. I think it should be closed to comment and stickied at the top. I can merge the threads as they appear so that we have them all in one place. This should be done by the training officer of the agency and they should PM me the link when they are done. As the training officer, they should probably be a part of the task force as well. That's out of my hands at this point and the Task Force will have to make those decisions. I will be glad to assist them in granting access as they see fit though.

 

[Choda]

This thread is so funny . Couple more days and we will know everything about everybody, and how everybody is the best instructor because his cavern class is 6 months long. :banana:

PS: I know "nakatomi" personally and his standards are higher than most of the "wanna-be" instructors on this forum trying to prove. :dance3:

 

[Superlyte27]

This thread is so funny . Couple more days and we will know everything about everybody, and how everybody is the best instructor because his cavern class is 6 months long. :banana:

PS: I know "nakatomi" personally and his standards are higher than most of the "wanna-be" instructors on this forum trying to prove. :dance3:

Well, this wanna-be instructor will be at the Ginnie Ballroom Saturday morning with students for their second day of Cavern Class. If any of you want to see what type of class I teach, I invite you to come and watch. I've never met any of these students. They could be great, they could be terrible, I have no idea. But you're welcome to come find out with me. Then you can judge for yourself what kind of instructor I am.

Maybe that's the answer...
A forum where instructors invite others to audit their class. And feedback then relayed back through the forum.

 

[Doppler]

Maybe that's the answer...
A forum where instructors invite others to audit their class. And feedback then relayed back through the forum.

Used to be (may still be) the way NAUI "policed" its instructors to make sure they followed standards... fallen out of favor now. On a personal note, it's always been a benefit to have another experienced instructor around when teaching. It's tough to arrange and potentially price prohibitive, but a lot of fun and I believe strongly that everyone walks away better off for it.