Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[cerich]

There is nothing "official". We do have an unofficial list.. You should be able to figure it out.

That is part of what makes people get tired of the "Good old Boy" crap. (or as I was told at a CDS meeting, I shouldn't think of it like a good ole boy network but more a fraternity...because that is MUCH better...LOL) If other agencies have a training program the CDS feels is substandard have the courage to clearly say who and why.

Having an unofficial list just makes it subject to abuse and being ignored when the potential crossover is a "diving buddy who really has his/her stuff together unlike the rest of that crowd"

Plus, we aren't even addressing how many if not most Instructor Trainers(CD's) for the main line agencies that are now doing cave are also CDS and/or NACD instructors, and somehow it's OK that they teach the type of program you are decrying for the other agency it's perfectly fine that they remain CDS and/or NACD instructors at the lower levels. If indeed the CDS and/or NACD have an issue with how some are doing this, they need to stop being hypocrites and put their money where their mouth is and remove instructors that also teach for other agencies who's standards are not, in the sole view of the CDS and/or NACD, up to snuff at any level.

But they won't and we both know it because of money and politics.

I agree with you that there needs to be more....fidelity for lack of a better word in cave instructor training.

 

[CamG]

Well this has been a interesting ready but now what?
Guess wait for the next thread to pop up them make some pop corn.
I see why many become so jaded and just become introverts diving with a few buddies quietly.
I understand why when and if some have private springs and cave that most will never see or hear about.
I do not blame, shame, or even hold any malice for them.

A single dive into Peacock and even in far reaches of the cave impact is brutally visible.
I get it, and accept it for some of us we will never be a part of the elect , or fraternity, good old boys club.
I am cool with that, never liked to much drama anyway and oddly enough I enjoy my dives.
The issues that are being discussed are open ended and many working to resolve some of them.
However cave conservation and etiquette is ALL OF OUR responsibility!
A kind word usually is enough to get the point across.
Sometimes nothing works I choose to move on not adding to the drama.

JCG

 

[Superlyte27]

Cam, these perpetrators aren't part of the elect diving the awesome caves. These instructors are diving peacock, Madison, little river, Ginnie, etc. They don't get invites to the cool sites because the true elite know they are crap and don't want their sites jacked up.

 

[mdax]

There is nothing like recreating ET's landing, watching rebreather students kneel at hill 400 to put in the reel, lights sweeping back and forth out of the cloud, confused back and forth motions, just awesome. It's super sweet to just black out and watch their instructor watch them and think, dammn he really is a crappy instructor...holy crap, did the instructor just give him the ok sign...hahahah...I don't care if he has five times the time in caves, he's cranking out crappy rebreather divers.

It really is the instructor, there are stellar instructors from all sorts of agencies, good luck filtering them out. Their students are likely terrible assessors, especially when in the hero worship phase and the clique of peers is strong, they'll NEVER out a crappy instructor.
However it's not ALWAYS the instructor.

I want to be clear, my wife and I have NO gue training, not a shread.
You will NEVER find a gue class that is putting jumps at hill 400 on their knees, at least not without the instructor stopping the dive and failing them. You will NEVER see a GUE instructor drinking beers immediately before dives and there is ZERO CHANCE a gue instructor who abandons students, steals or gets multiple felonies would retain their instructor rating.
There is also that pesky thing GUE does right regarding certification renewals.

For pete's sake, don't you other agencies see what they are doing right? Why aren't you poaching their ideas and increasing standards. I honestly think the largest barrier is because they would alienate or lose their instructors by increasing accountability and standards.
Now I haven't run right out and re-certified in GUE courses, but honestly, knowing what i know now I would HIGHLY recommend starting training with GUE.

 

[Superlyte27]

I hate to agree. And I'm an instructor with another agency.

 

[cerich]

I hate to agree. And I'm an instructor with another agency.

ditto

But...and this is important, there are instructors in the field who teach an excellent course that are NOT GUE. Sadly, if a person got to pick only by the agency and couldn't pick a person per say for instruction, their best bet t if they were looking for a quality program is to pick GUE because while they have quality variance, they also have the most consistent across the board delivery of their product (training). They are also very small and there is much more than just diving involved in their holistic approach. It is not for everybody by any means. If PADI is the McDonalds of recreational training, GUE is the Whole Foods.

But we also need to be honest about students, many do just want the card, they want it easy and they want it fun, and most instructors could deliver just such a program. The problem IMHO with that, in regards to cave training (and tech in general) is that courses that are all easy and fun tend to not be as "real" about the risks, as stringent about the skills, planning and developmental process that will allow the newly certified cave(tech) diver to gain experience in a manner that is unlikely to destroy the cave, scare the utter living crap out of the student when a "real" moment comes along (and one will) that will make them quit the scene or frankly kills them.(thankfully still fairly rare when people dive withing the limits of their training, no matter how crappy it is)

 

[Aotus]

But...and this is important, there are instructors in the field who teach an excellent course that are NOT GUE..... If PADI is the McDonalds of recreational training, GUE is the Whole Foods.

Funny. And yes, I'd like to think I was trained by a non-WF granola cruncher. I suspect there are a couple health nuts who are certified to teach at McD's too.

 

[Superlyte27]

Surely there are good instructors with other agencies. I am one of them. But I agree with most of Mdax's points, especially about adopting what GUE has done.

We all know it will never change. That's where the frustration stems from. Hell, just 5 minutes ago one of the old timers texted me for agreeing with Mdax's post. Mainly because it was Mdax. Who cares who the info came from. This isn't Democrats vs. Republicans. If the other side has a good argument, so be it. And to be fair to everyone... I don't know Mdax at all. If he walked up to me right now, I wouldn't know him from Adam. I know one of my friends doesn't like him. But hell, half of cave diving doesn't like my friend. What, I'm supposed to only agree with the half that does?

Here's my sincerest hope.... The cronies that created this mess die out from old age, but before that happens, we make some kind of change so that we don't build the next generation of Board of Directors, Instructor Trainers and Instructor Cronies that perpetuate each other for the sole purpose of making a dollar. The naive and new instructor that I was believed that everyone really cared about this sport. In any hobby, business, endeavor, group, church, community.... 10% of the people do 90% of the work. Today, I realize that 10% of the community cares about the betterment of the community. The other 90% is just trying to make a buck or trying to feel important, perhaps one last hunt before jumping the great boa.

I really don't know the answer. I've talked to several of you from this thread, during this thread. None of you know the answer either. All of you said it was too late to fix it. I agree. And that's sad.

Ultimately, to fix it, we need to get rid of bad instructors. We need to adhere to the good standards we have in place. Just enforce what's already written. From the top level all the way down. Sadly, the good ole boy system prevents anyone from getting ousted. It's pretty sad, because once upon a time, the people who actually had the power to oust people cared about the integrity of the sport, more than the agency or the paycheck. But this isn't a new argument. This is the reason Jablonski created the GUE. He knew what we're learning... You can't fix it the way it is, so you have to create something new.

Prove me wrong? Or do you think there isn't a problem?

---------- Post added March 9th, 2015 at 10:39 PM ----------

And oh yeah... I'm sure there's posts being sent right now to my Training Director and CEO of my agency about how I'm being unprofessional and should have my credentials pulled. It's not the first time that's happened. It probably won't be the last. But, I don't teach to make a living. So go for it. Take a good instructor from the ranks for speaking the truth about the degradation of cave diving society. Sure, that'll fix everything. LOL

 

[TSandM]

Do you think it would be enough, if every cave diving training agency required a Fundamentals level class as a prerequisite? I know several agencies have an "Intro to Tech"; UTD has its Overhead Protocols class. If everyone came to cave training already with solid buoyancy, solid trim, the ability to hold still and a tolerance for task loading, would instructors be faced as much with the conflict of needing someone's money but not liking their diving?

 

[cerich]

Do you think it would be enough, if every cave diving training agency required a Fundamentals level class as a prerequisite? I know several agencies have an "Intro to Tech"; UTD has its Overhead Protocols class. If everyone came to cave training already with solid buoyancy, solid trim, the ability to hold still and a tolerance for task loading, would instructors be faced as much with the conflict of needing someone's money but not liking their diving?

for sure, but the issue at hand extends to that level as well. Many "Intro to Tech" classes are done in one day and really are only a glimpse, not what you are thinking which is fundies type training.

Ideally any student taking cave or tech will have a solid foundational skill set prior, in real life...doesn't happen.

But regardless if a student has or does not have the skills coming in, they should not be passing without them on the other side..and there are two schools of thought on that it seems. one is show the skills and pass the class, the other is, we tried on the class, here is a card now go practice and hopefully you'll get this down. I subscribe to the first in my approach, many the second