Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Aotus]

A fundies class in each agency would be cool...but some might argue that's what AOW is. Then, back to square 1 - enforce standards or enable meaningless card selling.

 

[cerich]

anybody that would argue that AOW is a type of fundies doesn't know what they don't know

 

[Aotus]

for sure, but the issue at hand extends to that level as well. Many "Intro to Tech" classes are done in one day and really are only a glimpse, not what you are thinking which is fundies type training.

Ideally any student taking cave or tech will have a solid foundational skill set prior, in real life...doesn't happen.

But regardless if a student has or does not have the skills coming in, they should not be passing without them on the other side..and there are two schools of thought on that it seems. one is show the skills and pass the class, the other is, we tried on the class, here is a card now go practice and hopefully you'll get this down. I subscribe to the first in my approach, many the second

Seems like a tight line to walk...you're teaching some of the same skills that you're requiring they demonstrate to pass. So, I guess that's why we're asked to demonstrate them so many times, and at some point coaching turns into testing. But with a blurry line like that, I can see how some could lose track of where, or if it happens in training. Then again, that would be stupid to send students off with a new c card if they haven't demonstrated proficiency in the skills that are supposed to keep you alive. And surely no instructors are stupid right? I mean, that's gotta be in the instructor application, "stupid? (Y/N)"

 

[Redshift]

Do you think it would be enough, if every cave diving training agency required a Fundamentals level class as a prerequisite? I know several agencies have an "Intro to Tech"; UTD has its Overhead Protocols class. If everyone came to cave training already with solid buoyancy, solid trim, the ability to hold still and a tolerance for task loading, would instructors be faced as much with the conflict of needing someone's money but not liking their diving?

I see your point, but that's coming up with more and more courses to try and correct the faults from other courses. Then someone comes and asks if there shouldn't be a course between that "fundamentals" class and the next class because someone will still teach it at low standards and we are back to the problem being mentioned. Diving is fun and for everybody, great, but once you reach a certain level get your act together! If divers are trained properly and especially if they try to improve during their dives and have an idea of the requirements to take a cave course, they should have a good buoyancy, trim, etc. And the rest should be taught in cavern. Cavern, for some, is just a taste of what cave diving will be, it's something "light", but for others it's the beginning and the courses teach what's needed to progress further.
Due to GUE's philosophy it makes more sense for them to have a mandatory introductory class. In other agencies, not so much. But they exist for those who need, so the instructors can always have a check dive and either accept the students or recommend that they take such class. Or do a longer and more thorough cavern and not let them pass without good skills "because it's just cavern".
But I may be wrong because I went to cave after already having had Adv Nitrox and Deco Proc, diving with doubles, etc. Maybe it is hard if one goes directly from recreational level. But the fundamentals classes are also being pushed to prepare divers for these entry tech courses and in a way I see it as dividing the courses into too small divisions.

 

[karstdvr]

I really don't know the answer.

Sounds like the answer has been said, get GUE trained. If there are good and bad instructors with one agency, but good instructors with GUE,then it is obvious.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 06:15 AM ----------

Hell, just 5 minutes ago one of the old timers texted me for agreeing with Mdax's post.

Tell him hello

 

[Superlyte27]

Getting GUE trained doesn't solve the issue. There will always be card collectors who don't want a thorough class and high standards. We need to eliminate poorly taught classes.

 

[karstdvr]

Getting GUE trained doesn't solve the issue. There will always be card collectors who don't want a thorough class and high standards. We need to eliminate poorly taught classes.

You are right.

But, there will be people who will seek quality, and thus far anybody reading this thread will get a green light for GUE.

During the later 70's Ford and GM built cars that had terrible quality control, and the American public voted with their wallet, and all of suddend Honda, Toyota, and Nissan became household names. Ford and GM cleaned up their act,either meet the public demand or cease to exist.

Since unlike products and services we have Consumer Report or JD Power, something like this doesn't exist in cave diving. We know the obvious, no one will stand up and say this agency is bad or this instructor is bad,but thus far we have gotten unanimous positive comments for GUE. So if I want to learn a set of skills and in an overhead environment being well taught is a survival skill, and I want quality instruction,then GUE is a guarantee-perhaps?

 

[tomfcrist]

We know the obvious, no one will stand up and say this agency is bad or this instructor is bad

False. Nobody will do it HERE because of agency bashing rules on the board, and apparent lack of balls.

 

[karstdvr]

False. Nobody will do it HERE because of agency bashing rules on the board, and apparent lack of balls.

You are correct. What I am getting at is nobody will "out" anyone or any agency, I get it. But at the same time this thread has provided numerous positive comments for GUE. Hence,if I can't say negatives,but I can say positives,then at this point GUE gets the thumbs up for training. I don't believe this to be entirely true, I have been cave diving for over 20 years,and know there are some shining examples, and some rotten wood,but as Pete has mentioned, nothing positive ever comes out of identifying a negative-so sorry Tom you won't see what you are looking for.

 

[Superlyte27]

Your Ford/Chevy anology doesn't fit here. No one likes a crappy car. However, LOTS of people like easy classes with guaranteed c-cards