Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Do you see this as being a good idea?

Not a good idea.
Please send me the details.

 

[Aotus]

I don't dive CCR, and don't intend to anytime soon. But an instructor I once had was going to FL to sit on the bottom of somewhere in his RB for 6hrs, or some crazy amount of time, to rack up his 100. Seems like that kinda' defeats the purpose of the requirement...also why I'm a little unsure about the NACD cave diving awards that calculate hours instead of dives. On the other hand, maybe a long cave dive is more valuable experience than two short ones? I dunno, but an active dive of any duration definitely seems more likely to give you meaningful experience than sitting at the bottom with 3 movies on a waterproof tablet.

 

[Superlyte27]

Hour or Dives, I'm not sure it really matters. I know people doing 6 hour dives a lot. I also know a cave instructor who used to do Olsen to Peacock, Peacock to Olsen, Olsen to Peacock, etc. etc. etc. to be one of the first people to have a Sheck Exley award.

 

[ucfdiver]

It gets worse and worse as time goes by and we see more cave instructors who really aren't even good cave divers. The NSS-CDS/NACD pipeline requires an internship and requires prospective cave instructors to watch several classes be taught and requires they teach a few classes while being observed. This route takes many months and often over a couple of years minimum to achieve full cave instructor status. This is how the NSS-CDS and the NACD have maintained the highest of standards of cave diver training. Our cave divers do not work on their knees.

A few months ago a guy approached one of the NSS-CDS instructor sponsors about becoming a cave instructor. The sponsor explained the required route and the time requirements. He also explained that there are no monetary requirements. NSS-CDS instructors may not charge for training instructor interns

A couple of weeks later this same guy contacted the NSS-CDS instructor sponsor and told him he did not now need the internship program nor did he need an NSS-CDS instructor sponsor. This guy told him he had found a cave instructor trainer(IT) with XXX and had spent the prior weekend with the IT auditing a class. He was able to pay the IT and was certified as a cave instructor.

This is at least part of why we are seeing substandard cave divers. Someone in an earlier response suggested reading the sticky on how to find a good cave instructor. This is the link.

So when is he going to do a crossover so he can say he teaches for all agencies?

 

[Aotus]

Hour or Dives, I'm not sure it really matters. I know people doing 6 hour dives a lot. I also know a cave instructor who used to do Olsen to Peacock, Peacock to Olsen, Olsen to Peacock, etc. etc. etc. to be one of the first people to have a Sheck Exley award.

Regarding the awards, I don't know either.

But the (OC) instructor I was referencing, was sitting at the bottom of some sink hole trying to get hours enough to be a RB instructor.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

So when is he going to do a crossover so he can say he teaches for all agencies?

That is a good question. However the NSS-CDS has never allowed a cave instructor from that agency and at least one other agency to simply crossover. We realize the programs from these two agencies are not in line with our training philosophies and will not allow them to simply cross over.

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 06:51 AM ----------

That sure is an issue. Its kind of like what I heard about earlier this week where two Instructors are trying to pioneer a course for CCR. They called it Zero to Super Hero. Where the student with no background in CCR would take all of the training to be a diver and instructor in one shot. Then go home and get the necessary hours/dives submit them to these two Instructor Trainers and be issued instructor cards.

Crazy what some people are doing.

I am glad we talked about this last night. It seems this information is not accurate and more of a rumor than truth. I really can't imagine anyone seriously considering such a program and I think we determined that no one we know of is.

 

[karstdvr]

I also know a cave instructor who used to do Olsen to Peacock, Peacock to Olsen, Olsen to Peacock, etc. etc. etc. to be one of the first people to have a Sheck Exley award.

I have seen this quite a bit where someone would surface at Olsen, reset their computer, and then swim back to be able to count it as two dives to accelerate their Abe Davis award. Too bad they never went to Lafayette with its 23 sink holes, they would have the award in one weekend.

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 06:55 AM ----------

A couple of weeks later this same guy contacted the NSS-CDS instructor sponsor and told him he did not now need the internship program nor did he need an NSS-CDS instructor sponsor. This guy told him he had found a cave instructor trainer(IT) with XXX and had spent the prior weekend with the IT auditing a class. He was able to pay the IT and was certified as a cave instructor.

.

What a pity that people feel like they need to fast track being an instructor, and end up teaching substandard classes. On another subforum here the frequent complaint is the rush to become a sidemount instructor, people will buy their equipment and get instruction from a course director one weekend, and teaching side mount the next weekend.

 

[ucfdiver]

That is a good question. However the NSS-CDS has never allowed a cave instructor from that agency and at least one other agency to simply crossover. We realize the programs from these two agencies are not in line with our training philosophies and will not allow them to simply cross over.

I suppose that's good. They'll still teach for a half dozen agencies within a year, making it to where it takes half a dozen *verified* (ha!) standards violations to get them to stop teaching cave training.

If I recall, the NSS-CDS doesn't share their standards in public, so I'm not sure if this is an unofficial policy or official. Can you share which agencies the CDS doesn't allow and if it's documented or not?

 

[TSandM]

You can game almost any standard. I'm personally glad that you can get a safety award with hours, because once I got my Full Cave, most of my dives have been in the neighborhood of 3 hours, and I only do one a day. I'll be too demented to read the certificate if I wait to do 100 individual dives! (Not quite, but that's how it feels . . . )

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

If I recall, the NSS-CDS doesn't share their standards in public, so I'm not sure if this is an unofficial policy or official. Can you share which agencies the CDS doesn't allow and if it's documented or not?

There is nothing "official". We do have an unofficial list.. You should be able to figure it out.