Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Superlyte27]

Lets hope not!
But, sometimes I see that cave c-card to be used as inclusion into the cave diving social media that is prevalent on forums,not really the desire to cave dive much. Have seen frequently someone go from OW and then to cave diving,followed by a plethora of postings by that individual. That being said, even if that person is an infrequent gold line diver only, they deserve the same level of class,for the money paid.

Come on. That doesn't happen. Oh wait. Where's Waldo?

 

[Makhno]

Hi, I hope I'm not too off-topic here, and don't mean to hijack the thread (PM me, please). I think my query is responsive to the primary theme here:

Last month I got some training in cave country by an instructor who emphasized Florida etiquette. Unfortunately, I only had enough time to get to the Apprentice level before I needed to turn my attention to family matters. Now I'm back home in Asia and want to continue my cave training; it looks like Thailand is the closest and most convenient place to do that, even though the known cave systems there aren't ideal. I am considering several different instructors to help me complete my Full Cave training, each of whom is a very experienced instructor, each of whom is or has been involved in cave exploration to some extent, and each of whom is quite well-known in the SE Asia tech diving scene. Each, of course, works at least part-time in Thailand and knows those caves well.

I plan to go back to Florida next winter, so I'd like to get continued training that will adequately prepare me to dive the Florida caves; etiquette and a cave conservation ethic are important to me. For what it's worth, I'd also like to eventually help explore the virgin and rarely-dived cave systems of far north-western Thailand, Samar and elsewhere in the Philippines, and southwestern China where there is enormous potential. Toward those ends, a prospective instructor's connections and reputation and standing in the cave diving community are also important.

Please PM me with a recommendation for a cave instructor in Thailand, if you're knowledgeable enough to do so. Also, please PM me if you think any of those guys should be avoided and if so, why.

Thanks in advance.

 

[kensuf]

That makes no sense to me. Just the opposite. Everyone should be held to the same standard to make sure they are safe. If you are going to make exceptions based on locality (which I am not advocating), it would seem to me that the local person could be held to a lower standard on the theory that there will be more immediate personal practice to perfect skills. The out of town diver (like me) will be more likely to have skills erode with time.

One would hope, but that's not the case. I think that Tickler has given us a pretty good example of some of the things we're complaining about.

 

[Max Speed]

Can we get the names of some of these sub-standard instructors please? Rick is obviously way too demanding and I'm looking for an easy class...

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I cannot begin to express my frustration at what is consistently becoming a norm in the cave community. Cave divers kneeling on the bottom whilst making equipment adjustments as though routine and simple in nature. Reel lines ran mid passage, blocking entrances and side passages, multiple tie-offs using a common point. Diver teams failing to yield to exiting teams. And what I consider one of the biggest issues is divers performing dives that they are neither ready, trained nor equipped to do.

Do I fault these divers? It appears that cave diving at least in this part of the world has become almost mainstream. The shear number of divers I see visiting some of Florida's premier cave locations is a huge leap to the number of only a few years ago. To be a cave diver is no longer to be considered the elite of diving.

Again I ask myself, Do I fault these divers? NO, I lay fault with the agencies and the instructors. The agencies for permitting a corp of instructors who themselves are not often up to par of the once perceived cave diver status, yet have passed a streamlined learning process using a curriculum quite often based solely on academics and not practical application and /or refinement. Do not the two need to be developed together in achieving true mastery of a subject and practice?

It gets worse and worse as time goes by and we see more cave instructors who really aren't even good cave divers. The NSS-CDS/NACD pipeline requires an internship and requires prospective cave instructors to watch several classes be taught and requires they teach a few classes while being observed. This route takes many months and often over a couple of years minimum to achieve full cave instructor status. This is how the NSS-CDS and the NACD have maintained the highest of standards of cave diver training. Our cave divers do not work on their knees.

A few months ago a guy approached one of the NSS-CDS instructor sponsors about becoming a cave instructor. The sponsor explained the required route and the time requirements. He also explained that there are no monetary requirements. NSS-CDS instructors may not charge for training instructor interns

A couple of weeks later this same guy contacted the NSS-CDS instructor sponsor and told him he did not now need the internship program nor did he need an NSS-CDS instructor sponsor. This guy told him he had found a cave instructor trainer(IT) with XXX and had spent the prior weekend with the IT auditing a class. He was able to pay the IT and was certified as a cave instructor.

This is at least part of why we are seeing substandard cave divers. Someone in an earlier response suggested reading the sticky on how to find a good cave instructor. This is the link.

 

[GDI]

It gets worse and worse as time goes by and we see more cave instructors who really aren't even good cave divers. The NSS-CDS/NACD pipeline requires an internship and requires prospective cave instructors to watch several classes be taught and requires they teach a few classes while being observed. This route takes many months and often over a couple of years minimum to achieve full cave instructor status. This is how the NSS-CDS and the NACD have maintained the highest of standards of cave diver training. Our cave divers do not work on their knees.

A few months ago a guy approached one of the NSS-CDS instructor sponsors about becoming a cave instructor. The sponsor explained the required route and the time requirements. He also explained that there are no monetary requirements. NSS-CDS instructors may not charge for training instructor interns

A couple of weeks later this same guy contacted the NSS-CDS instructor sponsor and told him he did not now need the internship program nor did he need an NSS-CDS instructor sponsor. This guy told him he had found a cave instructor trainer(IT) with XXX and had spent the prior weekend with the IT auditing a class. He was able to pay the IT and was certified as a cave instructor.

This is at least part of why we are seeing substandard cave divers. Someone in an earlier response suggested reading the sticky on how to find a good cave instructor. This is the link.

Jim exactly, Cave Diving by itself takes commitment and time to perfect the Skills, Cave and Body Awareness, Equipment Awareness and all things inter-related. The cave instructor needs to be above and past all this if he is to observe and assess a potential cave diver and even more so a potential cave instructor. Something Jim didn't mention is that intern observation period isn't a one time thing. This process is repeated for cavern instructor and then again Cave Instructor for both the NSS-CDS and NACD. All to often scuba training is pushed ($$) hardly ever does the scuba instructor mentor. With the advent of Rebreathers (RB) entering the mainstream, this situation is only becoming (possibly) more grave The public want and the education of both the instructors and the consumers may not be where it should be.

I eluded to this back in this thread. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...ng-equipment-awareness-too-much-too-soon.html

 

[Superlyte27]

That sure is an issue. Its kind of like what I heard about earlier this week where two Instructors are trying to pioneer a course for CCR. They called it Zero to Super Hero. Where the student with no background in CCR would take all of the training to be a diver and instructor in one shot. Then go home and get the necessary hours/dives submit them to these two Instructor Trainers and be issued instructor cards.

Crazy what some people are doing.

 

[KevinNM]

That sure is an issue. Its kind of like what I heard about earlier this week where two Instructors are trying to pioneer a course for CCR. They called it Zero to Super Hero. Where the student with no background in CCR would take all of the training to be a diver and instructor in one shot. Then go home and get the necessary hours/dives submit them to these two Instructor Trainers and be issued instructor cards.

Crazy what some people are doing.

Is any insurance agency crazy enough to cover people doing this?

 

[Omisson]

That sure is an issue. Its kind of like what I heard about earlier this week where two Instructors are trying to pioneer a course for CCR. They called it Zero to Super Hero. Where the student with no background in CCR would take all of the training to be a diver and instructor in one shot. Then go home and get the necessary hours/dives submit them to these two Instructor Trainers and be issued instructor cards.

Crazy what some people are doing.

Do you mean someone who is already an open water and technical diving instructor is taking a CCR diver and Instructor combo course? or someone who is a non diver or non instructor taking such a course?

I think there is a huge difference -

 

[Superlyte27]

I love cheese.