Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Redshift]

It saddens and concerns me to see some practices that have been criticized in recreational scuba teaching are spreading in cave teaching as well.

Scuba courses were once lengthy and physically demanding. Then came the view that almost anyone can scuba dive, they don't need to know it all, or be that fit, or be that perfect underwater... the more the merrier. I agree with not placing too many barriers to people wanting to discover scuba diving, although I think things have gone too far.

But the same ideas are now being applied to more demanding dives and that's not good! Not only the risks to themselves are greater, but also to others as well as to an environment which had been so far more protected from damages.

I was thinking if the question about etiquette was due to divers reading about it in the books but then not experiencing and practising it during the courses... While it did happen to me on most training dives, I suspect the case is different in more crowded places like Florida. So it should have been drilled from the start! I did have some other teams in the water during some dives and that only made me want to be better! They were there to enjoy their dives and I didn't want to ruin their experience with my uncontrolled movements, bad line placement or a wrong kick here or there silting out the cave. It was bad enough we had to do some exercises where it's hard not to make some mess. And they'd be potential future buddies. I wanted them to see me working well during the course.

I wonder if we'll come to a time when, in the same way it's happening in rec diving, cards won't be worth much and divers will be asked to do check out dives.
I know of at least Ojamo mine, Finland, where there is an internal "certification" process and there was a mine in Germany for which a check dive was required for TDI cave divers, but the more recent rules I have seen already include those in the "ok to dive" list.
Maybe similar requirements are or should be in place in other dive sites?

 

[karstdvr]

I know of at least Ojamo mine, Finland, where there is an internal "certification" process and there was a mine in Germany for which a check dive was required for TDI cave divers, but the more recent rules I have seen already include those in the "ok to dive" list.
Maybe similar requirements are or should be in place in other dive sites?

Interesting.

There is a mechanism that has indirectly kept Florida caves pristine and made sure the diver has adequate qualification and skill to do that dive- guided sites. Everybody cries about this, but it has worked.

 

[kensuf]

I have had to become involved recently in a number of situations that have revealed to me the real ugliness of the politics in Florida cave country.

I used the word "ugliness" above. It is actually much worse than that, and it really sickens me.

The politics has always been there. There's a reason why a couple of NACD instructors split off to form the NSSCDS. There's a reason why a couple of NACD/NSSCDS instructors split off to form GUE.

The reality is there are x quantity of instructors competing for x/2 students,so yes there is backstabbing,negative comments etc; the same thing occurs with some shops competing for business.

And this thread is loaded with examples of problems that can happen when you have instructors depending on teaching diving (recreational, technical, and cave) for their primary source of income. If you fail someone, you may not get your next meal ticket or rent check.

---------- Post added March 1st, 2015 at 12:10 PM ----------

Final comment on this thread, then I'm done.

There used to be a time when instructors taught cave diving because they wanted to help keep people from killing themselves. The people that sought cave training were either locals, or just passionate about caves. But then someone convinced the rest of the diving world that the best divers are cave divers, and so everyone wanted to become a cave diver. The constant stressing of ConEd in recreational classes has made a generation of c-card collectors, and some of them view a cave card as just another badge, but a badge that says "I'm special, I'm in the best divers in the world category".

The reality is they don't have to have a cave card to be a good diver, and I think it's obvious now that not all certified cave divers are in the "best divers" category. If someone wants to be a great diver, but isn't that interested in cave diving, then they should focus on their skills, their awareness (global), and their enjoyment of their diving environment rather than getting a patch.

 

[GDI]

To illustrate the point one can see these pictures of just pure bad practices. Note I could not show whom the flutter kicking diver was, as it is unlikely I could have secured permission to use the photo to any point where identification of the diver is possible (legal stuff here). I think these few example demonstrate the level of training and sustainment of skills going on. Poorly tied in reels and placements with no stress reducing spring tension knot, bad propulsion techniques causing silt outs (thank God for the high flow). Some of the pictures shows the wear and tear on the cave structure. I am glad these divers used reels I can say that these pis were taken today at Manatee Springs

This has got to stop

 

[Aotus]

Wow, those last two pics of the primaries tied in to the main line are just silly, funny even. I think that's how I'd expect someone to tie in if they were just pulled off the street and handed a deep for the first time.

I will say though, I'm not sure what the problem of the first pic is. The one with the primary tie off on the log. Wrapping it around several more times could actually lead to a lot of blowing slack since the log is round and likely slippery...and, the secondary tie off just inside the cavern should be the one to worry more about.

 

[divad]

How would one go about finding a "good" cave diving instructor if not somewhat informed about the "bad" cave diving instructors?

 

[GDI]

Wow, those last two pics of the primaries tied in to the main line are just silly, funny even. I think that's how I'd expect someone to tie in if they were just pulled off the street and handed a deep for the first time.

I will say though, I'm not sure what the problem of the first pic is. The one with the primary tie off on the log. Wrapping it around several more times could actually lead to a lot of blowing slack since the log is round and likely slippery...and, the secondary tie off just inside the cavern should be the one to worry more about.

Granted some of what I say maybe up for debate and that is the good thing about chat rooms.

The two primaries are not correctly tied in at all. Normally there is a twist or two around the gold line and then the reel is secured back onto it's own line. A cave diver doesn't just clip into the line nor clip onto the gold line. This minimizes the chance of the reel coming off if the gold line is jerked and bounced around. Good Cave divers "OK" a a line they do not pull on it to help them move through the water. Doing so cuts the line into the rock or support object and risks breaking/snapping the gold line.

Primary and secondary tie offs are equally important as one is redundant to the other. Normally the primary has a three wrap system and a "tension spring" (TS) release. The TS maintains the security of the wrap but reduces the wear and tear on the support object (rock, tree etc) Any wear is on the line and line is easy to replace. The secondary is a repeat of the primary. Wraps and placements all use the same TS but less line is wrapped. A good cave diver always maintains Tension, Lock and Clips (TLC). Keeping a line properly under tension BUT not restrictively tight, the reel locked when not rolling and clipped off when finally secured is a clean line. Choosing your route to run the line (look before you swim) keeps passages clear.

I will look for some proper ties and wrap photos to better explain what I am attempting to describe above.

 

[Aotus]

How would one go about finding a "good" cave diving instructor if not somewhat informed about the "bad" cave diving instructors?

Check out the sticky on seeking good instruction. Between those points and asking around, you'll minimize your risk.

---------- Post added March 1st, 2015 at 07:47 PM ----------

Granted some of what I say maybe up for debate and that is the good thing about chat rooms.

The two primaries are not correctly tied in at all. Normally there is a twist or two around the gold line and then the reel is secured back onto it's own line. A cave diver doesn't just clip into the line nor clip onto the gold line. This minimizes the chance of the reel coming off if the gold line is jerked and bounced around. Good Cave divers "OK" a a line they do not pull on it to help them move through the water. Doing so cuts the line into the rock or support object and risks breaking/snapping the gold line.

Primary and secondary tie offs are equally important as one is redundant to the other. Normally the primary has a three wrap system and a "tension spring" (TS) release. The TS maintains the security of the wrap but reduces the wear and tear on the support object (rock, tree etc) Any wear is on the line and line is easy to replace. The secondary is a repeat of the primary. Wraps and placements all use the same TS but less line is wrapped. A good cave diver always maintains Tension, Lock and Clips (TLC). Keeping a line properly under tension BUT not restrictively tight, the reel locked when not rolling and clipped off when finally secured is a clean line. Choosing your route to run the line (look before you swim) keeps passages clear.

I will look for some proper ties and wrap photos to better explain what I am attempting to describe above.

I agree with you on tying in to the gold line. I would add that it's preferable to run a wrap nearby so that your line comes to the main line from 90 degrees.

About the primary and secondary tie off. Of course both should be solid, but between fewer objects often available in open water and the stories of kids coming and trying to steal the little ball tied to a rock, I tend to give extra emphasis to my secondary to cover for any vulnerability to the primary. I am also on board with how you describe locking down a tie off, but as this is usually done on an object with an open end (top of a rock), I don't see any problem with a simple loop-and-through tie on something like a log with no open end. That's how I tie my primary at hole in the wall in the mill pond, and short of someone cutting the line, it's not going anywhere.

 

[karstdvr]

How would one go about finding a "good" cave diving instructor if not somewhat informed about the "bad" cave diving instructors?

That is a very tough question. I frequently see people will ask for a recommendation on the forums of who they recommend for a class, and the obvious response is "my instructor". Just like when we learned OW diving, our instructor took us into a world of something new, and taught us new skills, so we felt they were the greatest instructor in the world, the same thing applies for cave diving. Also, multiple recommendations for the same instructor just indicates they have taught multiple classes. Unfortunately none of these things denote the quality of instruction you will get. The other consideration is call a dive shop that supported cave diving,but what you will get is a recommendation for an instructor on staff or teaches there, because that is all they see. So how do you find out the best quality instructor? I would ask cave divers who are very active at multiple sites and have been doing it for quite a few years,and the first thing out of their mouth isn't,"my instructor was....", because you want an objective opinion. Speak to different instructors and find out how they teach each day, if there is something out of sorts for example "on day 3 we will have you out of the water and heading home by 10am", and nobody else does, question it further. Hence,compare classes side by side. There are so many agencies and so many instructors now,and statistics says there will be a bell curve of quality of instruction, I just understand the desire to be on the front part of the curve. Good luck on anybody's endeavor.

 

[TSandM]

There are a lot of things that go into being a good instructor. Having high standards for student performance is only one of those things, although it is an important one. You can get a sense of that by asking a bunch of cave divers, "Other than YOUR instructor, who would you send somebody to?". Cave divers dive with buddies and see the performance of people trained by a bunch of different instructors.

However, it is also important to consider the ability of the person you go to to TEACH. One of my cave classes was more of a 5 day evaluation than any kind of learning experience, and it was disheartening.