Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Bob DBF]

I don't think it's an agency issue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't think it's an agency issue only in the sense that no agency seems to police their "professionals".

Nothing is being done, that I know of, to insure the professionals of any agency maintain the integrity of the agency approved classes they teach. It seems to me that the word agency is misapplied since their agents are not under their supervision, and therefore should not be giving certifications in the agency's name.

I am a state licensed agent and work as an independent contractor for an agency. My agency monitors my work and has ongoing training (in addition to my state mandated training) to insure I do my job well and do not run afoul of the law. The agency can drop me for whatever reason, however if I screw up badly enough, the agency licence is on the line as well for their inattention. Perhaps the Scuba agencies need to be federally or State licensed to insure their responsibility to the students.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but agency, which implies a public trust, should not be allowed if there is no corresponding responsibility.




Bob
------------------------------------------
I rant, therefore I am.
Dennis Miller

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... there is, of course, one cave-training agency that monitors the quality of its instructors rather strictly ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't think it's an agency issue only in the sense that no agency seems to police their "professionals".

Nothing is being done, that I know of, to insure the professionals of any agency maintain the integrity of the agency approved classes they teach. It seems to me that the word agency is misapplied since their agents are not under their supervision, and therefore should not be giving certifications in the agency's name.

I am a state licensed agent and work as an independent contractor for an agency. My agency monitors my work and has ongoing training (in addition to my state mandated training) to insure I do my job well and do not run afoul of the law. The agency can drop me for whatever reason, however if I screw up badly enough, the agency licence is on the line as well for their inattention. Perhaps the Scuba agencies need to be federally or State licensed to insure their responsibility to the students.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but agency, which implies a public trust, should not be allowed if there is no corresponding responsibility.

The problem you are having is with the word agency.

What you describe in your private life is a true agency, and that is actually a term that has a legal definition. NONE of the scuba agencies are actually agencies. Not one. In fact, they are now going out of their way to make sure everyone knows that. The new PADI and SSI liability releases say that specifically.

Do you really want the scuba "agencies" to be state or federally licensed and fall under those rules and regulations? If so, scuba is going to look a whole lot different. You may like the changes. Then again, you may not.

 

[Superlyte27]

A lot of divers get certified in 3 day (or less) "wonder" courses these days. They don't know what they don't know.

Think I'm kidding? One of the most prolific instructors in Alachua County (home to High Springs) only teaches a course with two days of water-time (pool session on Saturday AM, check-out dive #1 and 2 in the PM, check-out dives #3 and 4 on Sunday). These people have wound up in my advanced classes at UF (and private), and there's a lot of time we need to spend remediating them.

Oh, so tempting. But, I told you guys months ago, I'd never get into another thread like this. This will be my last post on the subject.

I'm not a full time instructor. I hope to NEVER make my living teaching. However, I challenge any of you to find a student with my name on his card that doesn't have rock solid skills and the utmost respect for the cave. Those people near me, know I have no issue failing students who simply can't produce a mastery of the skills necessary to be a solid and squared away cave diver.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 06:34 PM ----------

Let's ditch the ageism rhetoric. Some of the best students I've had are young enthusiastic people, and some of the worst were retirees that felt they knew it all.

Spot on man. The two best students I've ever had were early 20's University of Miami students. The ONLY two people who have ever failed my class to the point where I told them, "this is never going to happen, you're not gaining ground" was 50+ year old people.

Oh crap. I said the last post was my last post. GAH!

 

[rddvet]

Trust me, this has no affect other than drama. It fixes almost nothing. Ask me how I know.

Yup, it's pointless. I was never this instructors student or friend have never directly negatively impacted by him or one of his students, so I will not out him. It's not my place. I have seen many of his students though and I will say its scary.

If I am negatively impacted by him or one of his students in a cave(aka silted out or something) I will happily tell him what I think to his face.

To be honest he's considered a "legend" by many so even if I outed him, those that don't want to believe it will just say I'm full of it.

 

[tomfcrist]

What I find impressive is that some of you claim that this persons former students need to grow balls and address him about what he is doing, but none of you are even willing to say that a specific instructor (name is needed) is turning out crap cave divers. That is kind of hypocritical...since you don't have the sac to call him out. The reality is that someone can be a great diver but be piss poor at teaching others...which seems like it may be the case here.

Are you at least willing to PM the name? Or even send a link to a specific thread on the other forum?

 

[USFpsychDiver]

When I started my cave training I had no way of knowing who was a good instructor and who wasn't. I didn't know any cave divers. I'd found online forums, but didn't know any of the people there. I could ask around on forums -- no one will say anything in a public forum but some will via PM, but there's no way to judge the quality of those recommendations. So I ended up training with three different instructors (one of whom was a 'big name') and getting certifications from two different agencies (and I'm planning on some further training with a fourth instructor this spring). I'm more educated now as to agency and instructor and I know many more cave divers than I did then, but how's a newcomer supposed to choose wisely? If you ask about agency the answer is that agency doesn't matter, instructor does (although NWGD alluded to one agency being more stringent than the others, but not naming it -- I know the one I'd choose), and if you ask about instructor, well you may get some answers, but there's a lot of variability -- so many options these days.

Then there's following the rules. I suppose there are divers that follow every rule every time, but I haven't met many of them, and I've dove with a number of well respected divers. Sometimes blindly following a rule ignores the instances when following the rule might be more dangerous than not. Classic example is running a line down the ear at Ginnie when four training teams have already run loose lines down billowing in the flow and a fifth is trying to pull one. I guess it's possible that someone who's dove Ginnie a hundred times could still get lost between the end of the gold line and open water somehow, but the risk of somehow not just letting the flow blow you out to OW seems much less than trying to add another line to the existing rat's nest.

I hate the wrist-deep handprints in the clay and the broken rocks glaring white and the long grooves scored in the floor and shake my head at the stage bottles in the middle of the floor and the rebreather divers doing drills blocking the exit not making way for the exiting team and the guy on his knees in the silt futzing with his gear kicking up clouds of dust, but I'm no expert, I'm just a novice -- I do my best to be polite and cause no damage and my instructors at least paid lip service to respecting the environment and fellow divers. When there were only 10 cave divers in the world no one would act up; now that there are 10,000 (or however many there are) most of us are anonymous and there will be some rude folk in any group that big. Can try to blame training or instructor or agency, but it's human nature. Miss what is lost, respect what is left, and I'll try to keep my side of the street clean.

 

[rjack321]

This quest of the agencies to quickly compete by offering the fast and minimal in training. A culture of quick gratification permeates throughout the dive industry. IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY THE CARD IS YOURS. And the instructors follow suit to this culture.

Some of us have been diving a long time and don't have a card for everything or even have access to certain types of cards. Cave CCR and Cave DPV come to mind as the most cardy of cards but requiring CCR MOD2 and 3 of a longtime OC trimix diver is also in this category.

Florida, cave sites in particular, has become obsessed with cards and its not effective or working despite all these plastic hurdles.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 09:04 PM ----------

Without resurrecting the dead, I think it is well documented on CDF

Cripes its well documented on the sheriff's dept facebook page!

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 09:05 PM ----------

What I find impressive is that some of you claim that this persons former students need to grow balls and address him about what he is doing, but none of you are even willing to say that a specific instructor (name is needed) is turning out crap cave divers. That is kind of hypocritical...since you don't have the sac to call him out. The reality is that someone can be a great diver but be piss poor at teaching others...which seems like it may be the case here.

Are you at least willing to PM the name? Or even send a link to a specific thread on the other forum?

Its no secret, if you had ever been cave diving in FL (or on CDF) you wouldn't need to be told.

 

[karstdvr]

When I started my cave training I had no way of knowing who was a good instructor and who wasn't. I didn't know any cave divers. I'd found online forums, but didn't know any of the people there. I could ask around on forums -- no one will say anything in a public forum but some will via PM, but there's no way to judge the quality of those recommendations. So I ended up training with three different instructors (one of whom was a 'big name') and getting certifications from two different agencies (and I'm planning on some further training with a fourth instructor this spring). I'm more educated now as to agency and instructor and I know many more cave divers than I did then, but how's a newcomer supposed to choose wisely? If you ask about agency the answer is that agency doesn't matter, instructor does (although NWGD alluded to one agency being more stringent than the others, but not naming it -- I know the one I'd choose), and if you ask about instructor, well you may get some answers, but there's a lot of variability -- so many options these days.

Then there's following the rules. I suppose there are divers that follow every rule every time, but I haven't met many of them, and I've dove with a number of well respected divers. Sometimes blindly following a rule ignores the instances when following the rule might be more dangerous than not. Classic example is running a line down the ear at Ginnie when four training teams have already run loose lines down billowing in the flow and a fifth is trying to pull one. I guess it's possible that someone who's dove Ginnie a hundred times could still get lost between the end of the gold line and open water somehow, but the risk of somehow not just letting the flow blow you out to OW seems much less than trying to add another line to the existing rat's nest.

I hate the wrist-deep handprints in the clay and the broken rocks glaring white and the long grooves scored in the floor and shake my head at the stage bottles in the middle of the floor and the rebreather divers doing drills blocking the exit not making way for the exiting team and the guy on his knees in the silt futzing with his gear kicking up clouds of dust, but I'm no expert, I'm just a novice -- I do my best to be polite and cause no damage and my instructors at least paid lip service to respecting the environment and fellow divers. When there were only 10 cave divers in the world no one would act up; now that there are 10,000 (or however many there are) most of us are anonymous and there will be some rude folk in any group that big. Can try to blame training or instructor or agency, but it's human nature. Miss what is lost, respect what is left, and I'll try to keep my side of the street clean.

There is a lot of things to disseminate here, and by and large there is a lot of truth with poignant comments
1)It is a pity that or if cave training has reached the caveat emptor level-do we need a Carfax for instructors? I will admit that with the safety record cave diving has developed because of technology and a refined set of rules,it has become attractive to enter the sport,either as a student or instructor. Just as I alluded to with the comments that people make about over-night sidemount instructors, it appears that some of the same problems are occurring in cave diving. So, the bottom line, you need to do your homework,and get the best instruction possible, because a c-card alone will not save you when things go seriously wrong.
2) I will stick with following the rules is always best,even if there are 4 poorly placed lines in the entrance to Devil's. There are numerous times that I have had to move lines myself to make my entrance possible,and will accept this as the price of diving a highly popular area. I will never condemn anybody for following the rules and putting in a primary line,but I understand the frustration being conveyed.
3) Hand prints, broken rocks etc I will fault the diver, and less the instructor. At some time personal responsibility becomes a factor, and if a person can't enter a cave without leaving some significant impact like this, then they don't belong. There are so many awesome caves in Florida,more than most cave divers will probably ever know, and quite a few are kept off the radar screen of the average recreational cave divers because of such bad technique,these caves would be damaged by the thundering herds. What a pity, because if we spread out the traffic,then it would reduce impact on the tourist caves.

 

[kwinter]

Oh, so tempting. But, I told you guys months ago, I'd never get into another thread like this. This will be my last post on the subject.

The ONLY two people who have ever failed my class to the point where I told them, "this is never going to happen, you're not gaining ground" was 50+ year old people.

And I'm a 50+ guy in need of remediation coming down in 2 weeks. Better tighten your girdle.