Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[tomfcrist]

there are classes you can take before cave training that will teach you non-silting propulsion techniques. with some agencies it is required that you pass these first

Absolutely. Intro to Tech type classes should get you up to speed on Kicks etc..... Personally, I do an evaluation session prior to starting any tech training with a student. If they don't know the kicks or have horrible buoyancy....they get to pay for ITT as well as their other course. There is no reason an instructor should have to teach very basic and easy skills during such an advanced class. I liken it to a trigonometry teacher being asked to teach one of his students how to add single digit numbers.

 

[videofly]

Welcome to the X and millennium generations, where everything is owed and meant to come easily. Although I have been scuba diving on and off for over 40 years, I consider myself a novice diver at best. I've even been in a few Florida caverns and was lucky enough to enjoy those experiences. While I'm certainly no expert diver, I can relate modern cave diving trends to other potentially dangerous activities with which I do claim to have some expertise. When I helped to pioneer vertical ice climbing techniques in the early 70's, and worked with European climbers to devise safer equipment and techniques, I learned to sit back and watch trends and safety practices erode over following decades to the point where anyone could simply buy equipment and climb. Of course, with many errors behind industry standards, improved equipment and recorded routes have enabled novices, with luck and minimal skills, to conquer many amazing climbs. Similarly, years ago when I began to skydive, the relatively small community viewed safe landings as the goal. Nowadays, especially with the advent of tandem skydiving, accessibility to jumping with minimal skills, knowledge of safety, and attention to details is commonplace. Compounded by simple access to video cameras and internet postings, now, it is easy to "gain experience" at the computer. Once again, welcome to a new generation of entitlement, where death defying activities are perceived to be as safe as amusement park rides. And for the most part, many do well with their ignorance, improved equipment, marked routes, and a lot of luck. Unfortunately, today's trends are widespread and possibly not reversible.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Part of the problem is in the many agencies now certifying cave divers. In the beginning not so many- so everyone knew who to call out when standards fall short. Now who knows what agency a diver trained with or what standards were taught. The price of becoming a popular diving trend.

I don't think it's an agency issue. I can think of one very well-known Florida cave instructor who I witnessed teaching the kind of students GDI described ... and they were in rebreathers! Frankly I suspect their problem was primarily do to a lack of experience on rebreathers, which affected their buoyancy control ... because we ended up at the same caves four out of my six days down there one year and on three of those we had to call our dives because that particular class silted out the cave. At Orange Grove we also ended up getting entangled in their line because not only did they silt out the entrance, but they ran the damn line right down the center of the entrance where, if you couldn't see it, you also couldn't avoid it. The class was a total mess ... which surprised the hell out of me, considering who their instructor was.

I've also noticed a trend for incoming divers not yielding to outgoing divers ... which is a very basic violation of a rule that every diver should have learned on day 1 of their first cave class. Apparently they must not be teaching that rule anymore ... or making it sound like it's optional.

If a guy like me ... who gets to go cave diving about one week a year ... is noticing these things, I can only imagine how it must be for people who dive down there on a regular basis.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LiteHedded]

I don't think it's an agency issue. I can think of one very well-known Florida cave instructor who I witnessed teaching the kind of students GDI described ... and they were in rebreathers! Frankly I suspect their problem was primarily do to a lack of experience on rebreathers, which affected their buoyancy control ... because we ended up at the same caves four out of my six days down there one year and on three of those we had to call our dives because that particular class silted out the cave. At Orange Grove we also ended up getting entangled in their line because not only did they silt out the entrance, but they ran the damn line right down the center of the entrance where, if you couldn't see it, you also couldn't avoid it. The class was a total mess ... which surprised the hell out of me, considering who their instructor was.

I've also noticed a trend for incoming divers not yielding to outgoing divers ... which is a very basic violation of a rule that every diver should have learned on day 1 of their first cave class. Apparently they must not be teaching that rule anymore ... or making it sound like it's optional.

If a guy like me ... who gets to go cave diving about one week a year ... is noticing these things, I can only imagine how it must be for people who dive down there on a regular basis.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

a lot of the biggest 'names' are producing absolute garbage students

 

[karstdvr]

Useless info without a link.

Cave Divers Forum-people use same names on this forum as there if you do a search

 

[Bob DBF]

Again I ask myself, Do I fault these divers? NO, I lay fault with the agencies and the instructors. The agencies for permitting a corp of instructors who themselves are not often up to par of the once perceived cave diver status, yet have passed a streamlined learning process using a curriculum quite often based solely on academics and not practical application and /or refinement. Do not the two need to be developed together in achieving true mastery of a subject and practice?

This quest of the agencies to quickly compete by offering the fast and minimal in training. A culture of quick gratification permeates throughout the dive industry. IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY THE CARD IS YOURS. And the instructors follow suit to this culture.

Using the same line of reasoning, I have tried to point out the similar problems with OW training. Don't expect any results because opposing reasoning is that there is no increase in fatalities so the training is as good as ever. The problem is fueled by the instant gratification needs of the students, the greed of instructors, and lack of over-site by the Agencies over their agents. I believe the reason more problems are not seen is because of "bucket-list" divers and dropouts after a near miss; I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens in cave diving.

Do they follow blindly or just out of " That is just the way it is", "It's the Norm" , It's the way I learned to do it"

All of the above.

It takes time, and determination of the instructor, to make a thinking diver. As the classes are abbreviated, or made digital (less human interaction), the instructor has less time to cover the material, never mind find a way to insure the student actually understands why things are done the way they are, so when they have to make their own decision it is the right one. Without enough time during instruction there is no way to differentiate between a talented diver and a poser, so they both get a card



Bob
---------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[LiteHedded]

well when some of the worst offenders are on the board of the agency....it's tough

 

[GDI]

GDI, Don't get me started. And God forbid you point the finger only to be crucified, ostracized and threatened. It can't be fixed man. Don't even try. Let's back up... the diver's don't know what they're doing is wrong, or they don't care. Either because their instructor either doesn't recognize the issue or doesn't care. Try to talk to the instructor or the student and you're a hateful SOB. Try to convince them that it's not acceptable and you're the biggest prick ever. Bring it to the attention of the certifying agency and they'll tell you it's none of your business and that the agency can't handle a blemish on their good name.

It's a joke man. And it's never going to change. So give up right now, before you care too much. I have, and I enjoy diving a WHOLE LOT BETTER NOW

That is not going to happen. . Especially Not since I happen to be on the board of an agency. It will be a long time effort

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 11:54 AM ----------

I do fault the divers. Basic instruction is the license to learn beyond your basic skill set. I found from a survey I conducted and published in UWS that most people didn't receive adequate or minimum cave conservation training,but learning beyond the entry level is their responsibility. Cave divers need to take personal responsibility and quit blaming instructors/agencies for all their deficits. If your buoyancy and trim skills are inadequate and you are in a small passage,the whole dive you are bumping the walls/ceiling and stirring up silt, personal responsibility means you don't have the skill set to be there, and exit. Where yes I agree with your comment that there are deficits in training,since there are deficits in how instructors are made with some agencies,but cave divers can't continue to lay blame for all their failures on this alone,but accept personal responsibility, and work to improve.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 06:40 AM ----------



I think the point of not knowing they are doing that is wrong is fairly short lived,because there is enough pervasive discussion and videos out there to give a person a general idea of how to do it right,now comes the, "don't care". The don't care is going to cost you and me access,because I know I sound like Chicken Little, and "the sky is falling...", the largest land owner of caves DOES CARE, DOES ASK, and the solution is something NOBODY will like.

good points

 

[kensuf]

Welcome to the X and millennium generations, where everything is owed and meant to come easily.

Let's ditch the ageism rhetoric. Some of the best students I've had are young enthusiastic people, and some of the worst were retirees that felt they knew it all.

 

[TSandM]

There is very little you can do with people who don't care, except try to identify them and not give them cave cards. But I think you can do people who DO care a disservice, if you don't put proper technique and cave conservation in the forefront of a class. I know that the disappointed look on Danny Riordan's face when we failed to change our kicks before going through a narrow area, was enough to make me want to crawl under the truck. Danny LOVES the caves, and it's apparent in everything he does and says, and by the end of his class, you absolutely wince if you touch ANYTHING. In fact, my first trip to Florida was very difficult for me, mentally, because pull and glide seemed heretical!