Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[boulderjohn]

To be honest he's considered a "legend" by many so even if I outed him, those that don't want to believe it will just say I'm full of it.

So what purpose does this whole discussion about an unnamed incompetent legend serve? Lots of people have been instructed by people considered by many to be legends.. It just makes everyone wonder if you are talking about their instructor.

I have had to become involved recently in a number of situations that have revealed to me the real ugliness of the politics in Florida cave country. A number of instructors, including the legends, positively hate each other. That would be fine and dandy if I did not see them waging a vendetta against their enemies by backstabbing, spreading rumors, etc. Heck, I'm not an instructor and I don't live in Florida, but I got smacked in the face really hard last year when I made the innocent mistake of walking naively into one of those conflicts. As a consequence, I don't believe anything I hear about anybody there any more. If I hear some instructor sucks, I won't know whether it is because that instructor sucks or because the person telling me about it heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from that guy's worst enemy.

I used the word "ugliness" above. It is actually much worse than that, and it really sickens me.

 

[karstdvr]

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I have had to become involved recently in a number of situations that have revealed to me the real ugliness of the politics in Florida cave country. A number of instructors, including the legends, positively hate each other. That would be fine and dandy if I did not see them waging a vendetta against their enemies by backstabbing, spreading rumors, etc. Heck, I'm not an instructor and I don't live in Florida, but I got smacked in the face really hard last year when I made the innocent mistake of walking naively into one of those conflicts. As a consequence, I don't believe anything I hear about anybody there any more. If I hear some instructor sucks, I won't know whether it is because that instructor sucks or because the person telling me about it heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from that guy's worst enemy.

I used the word "ugliness" above. It is actually much worse than that, and it really sickens me.

Why be surprised? This is nothing new and has been going on for 20+++ years,but this isn't a unique situation. The thing is people come to this Disney World fantasy land we call "Cave country" for their once or twice a year indulgence,and there is nothing wrong with this. The reality is there are x quantity of instructors competing for x/2 students,so yes there is backstabbing,negative comments etc; the same thing occurs with some shops competing for business. Look at the situtations in Mexico, where you have had full blown line arrow wars, efforts to have some guides banned from some sites- even uglier perhaps. As I mentioned this type of human behavior is not unique,look at other sports where there is competition for business,same type of behaviors exist. I remember using a white water rafting outfitter and them telling me I was lucky I chose them versus ABC,because they were nefarious people. To me it is important not to be sucked into this stuff because it is a big vacuum looking for target. Why do I want to mess up my valuable diving time and in some cases vacation time with hearing how bad this person is, or avoid that shop because.....

 

[tomfcrist]

Its no secret, if you had ever been cave diving in FL (or on CDF) you wouldn't need to be told.

Ok. IMHO, if there is an actual problem you have a few choices.

1- approach said instructor and have a conversation about the end product of his classes.
2- video him and his students on thier final dives of a class, watching him give a card to the student. Then forward this to the training agency.
3- grow some balls and say what you really think about a specific person in public. Ie: quit playing these shadow games.
4- tell prospective cavers in public forum who this guy is and why you are I satisfied with his instruction.
5- if you are unwilling to do any one or combination of the above....shut the **** up and carry on with your life.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So what purpose does this whole discussion about an unnamed incompetent legend serve? Lots of people have been instructed by people considered by many to be legends.. It just makes everyone wonder if you are talking about their instructor.

I have had to become involved recently in a number of situations that have revealed to me the real ugliness of the politics in Florida cave country. A number of instructors, including the legends, positively hate each other. That would be fine and dandy if I did not see them waging a vendetta against their enemies by backstabbing, spreading rumors, etc. Heck, I'm not an instructor and I don't live in Florida, but I got smacked in the face really hard last year when I made the innocent mistake of walking naively into one of those conflicts. As a consequence, I don't believe anything I hear about anybody there any more. If I hear some instructor sucks, I won't know whether it is because that instructor sucks or because the person telling me about it heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from that guy's worst enemy.

I used the word "ugliness" above. It is actually much worse than that, and it really sickens me.

I've noticed similar things in Florida (and to a lesser degree in Mexico) ... which is why I restricted my comments to what I've personally experienced on my few trips to Florida cave country. Sure, some of it's the nature of competing for a limited clientele, but some is just downright dangerous ... not only to the people involved, but to others who may just happen to be inside the caves at the time. That's the worrisome part ... in cave diving it isn't just the people playing stupid games that can win the prizes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Aotus]

Sure, some of it's the nature of competing for a limited clientele, but some is just downright dangerous ... not only to the people involved, but to others who may just happen to be inside the caves at the time. That's the worrisome part ... in cave diving it isn't just the people playing stupid games that can win the prizes ...

I think the definition of defensive driving can be easily carried over to diving in general, but for the reasons you mentioned, especially to cave diving:

"D(r)iving to save lives... in spite of the conditions around you and the actions of others."

Short of causing a collapse that blocks your egress, or destroying the line between you and the exit (a real danger if someone is panicking) most things done by reckless divers will hopefully only affect them and their team, and not cause anything more than an annoying low-vis exit for teams coming out through their mess. Notice I said "hopefully."

 

[boulderjohn]

Short of causing a collapse that blocks your egress, or destroying the line between you and the exit (a real danger if someone is panicking) most things done by reckless divers will hopefully only affect them and their team, and not cause anything more than an annoying low-vis exit for teams coming out through their mess. Notice I said "hopefully."

Watch this entire video and imagine someone with poor buoyancy control in that cave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmO_GWcMUjs

 

[Aotus]

Spectacular.

But, my point was about what dangers a poorly skilled diver poses to other teams that happen to be in the same cave. I said nothing about the danger such a person would pose to the cave itself, which is quite a different story.

I really hope to see this cave someday. Though someone more knowledgable than myself about these formations might point out that oils from our hands can damage some of the crystals found in caves...so I will be looking and not touching.

 

[boulderjohn]

Spectacular.

But, my point was about what dangers a poorly skilled diver poses to other teams that happen to be in the same cave. I said nothing about the danger such a person would pose to the cave itself, which is quite a different story.

I really hope to see this cave someday. Though someone more knowledgable than myself about these formations might point out that oils from our hands can damage some of the crystals found in caves...so I will be looking and not touching.

It is Dan's cave on Abaco Island in the Bahamas. The guide in the video is Brian Kakuk. I have done several dives in that cave with Brian. It is an overwhelming experience.

 

[Aotus]

I don't think I can even wrap my head around it. Thanks for the info. I have a friend who's scheduled to dive with him this summer. I expect I'll have to hear enough about it that it will work its way into my budget one of these days.... somehow...

 

[karstdvr]

Watch this entire video and imagine someone with poor buoyancy control in that cave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmO_GWcMUjs

The pity is there are decorated caves in Mexico with speleothems that have irreparable damage from poor cave diving technique. Where Florida may not share the same level of overt decoration , it has some very unique features like goethite etc,that has a remarkable history of formation-pity people don't understand it, touch it,destroy it.