Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[karstdvr]

Your Ford/Chevy anology doesn't fit here. No one likes a crappy car. However, LOTS of people like easy classes with guaranteed c-cards

But, there will be that few that want high quality instruction, and value for their money, and they will want a mechanism to guarantee high quality instruction. So perhaps there will always be bottom feeders, that will accept low quality, and show it in the water, to have that c-card. So is this thread saying, use GUE for high quality, and the rest use everything else???

 

[kwinter]

Your Ford/Chevy anology doesn't fit here. No one likes a crappy car. However, LOTS of people like easy classes with guaranteed c-cards

Then maybe the answer should be to develop LOTS of courses that can give them the benefit of a card without requiring much skill in a life-threatening environment. Advanced reef diving. Pony breathing. Gear maintenance. Etc., etc.

And I don't agree with Kelly about the unanimous support for GUE. My feeling is that they are excellent as far as skills teaching, but some fall very short on theory and explanation. Perfect for those who want to learn the "how" of a skill, but not the "why." Some people are more theoretical in their learning. It helps them to form a better image of how the skill should be performed. Others are more practical oriented and value mimicry over theory. Neither way is right or wrong. Just different styles. The GUE focus is not for everyone.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[cerich]

Your Ford/Chevy anology doesn't fit here. No one likes a crappy car. However, LOTS of people like easy classes with guaranteed c-cards

except when they have silted out the passageway and they can't find the line......then they value them more.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 06:38 AM ----------

And I don't agree with Kelly about the unanimous support for GUE. My feeling is that they are excellent as far as skills teaching, but some fall very short on theory and explanation. Perfect for those who want to learn the "how" of a skill, but not the "why." Some people are more theoretical in their learning. It helps them to form s better image of how the skill should be performed. Others are more practical oriented and value mimicry over theory. Neither way is right or wrong. Just different styles. The GUE focus is not for everyone.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

nor is their "holistic" approach for everyone either.

I could not agree more than with the importance of the why with the how.

 

[karstdvr]

And I don't agree with Kelly about the unanimous support for GUE. .

Me too.
There is a strong hint of sarcasm regarding this thread.

 

[victorzamora]

Surely there are good instructors with other agencies.

....and modest, too!!

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 08:18 AM ----------

On the topic of naming&shaming bad instructors, I've received a lot of PMs (and sent quite a few) regarding good vs bad instructors. Some were VERY big name instructors. Heck, I have (had? can't find it) video of a "good" big-name instructor's class failing miserably and still getting their C-cards. I'm talking about flutter-kicking, hand-sculling, getting pinned to the ceiling beyond the point of self-rescue, total loss of control/buoyancy, poor reel work, and bouncing off the bottom in a no-flow scenario....and these people got their Full Cave cards that day. Another big-name instructor......I watched (really wish I had my go pro) him and 3 students and an instructor candidate KNEELING on the ground doing mask r&r. They weren't in the PADI-kneel like we all know and love, more of a "chick-style pushup" position....but even with knees on the ground, one floated away and another kept pushing himself off the bottom. My wife, on Dive #25 (and #1 in her drysuit), hovered above them in GUE-trim/posture while she adjusted hose routing. Now, she's not always that perfect....but it really depressed me. I mean, I was proud of where my wife was.....but I was just sitting there in horror as it dawned on me how many in-water hours and how much ego was sitting there with knees on solid ground while my wife innocently readjusted some things.

I will also say that reporting instructors has become an absolute joke. "Lowly divers" report instructors and they're ignored or told nothing can be done about it. Instructors do it, and it's "political maneuvering" and gets people into vengeful moods.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do you think it would be enough, if every cave diving training agency required a Fundamentals level class as a prerequisite? ....

Ideally any student taking cave or tech will have a solid foundational skill set prior, in real life...doesn't happen.

A fundies class in each agency would be cool...but some might argue that's what AOW is.

I started cave training after having several tech certifications and good experience wearing doubles. It took a long time for me to develop the skills I had when I started cave instruction. My cavern training started in the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs, and while we were gearing up, another diver came by and asked about what we were doing. He said he wanted to start cave training soon, and my instructor gave him his card. Later that day we saw him and his wife practicing their mask clearing skills, kneeling on the bottom. He was nowhere near ready to start cave diving, and yes, he had completed AOW.

I believe Lynne's idea has merit. Look at the advertised lengths of the introductory levels of cave training classes and the price students pay. If someone comes into those classes unable even to clear a mask in mid water, there is no way that diver is going to get through those classes in those times with the necessary basic skills of trim, buoyancy, and kicking. There will be great financial pressure on the instructor to pass the student who does not really have the skills because taking as long as it would take to correct that would reduce pay to about nil. When people go into places like ScubaBoard and ask about cave training, I always advise them to work on those skills first. You want your cave instructor to teach cave diving. You don't want to pay him or her to teach the skills you could have learned before that instead.

False. Nobody will do it HERE because of agency bashing rules on the board, and apparent lack of balls.

ScubaBoard's agency bashing rules do not forbid saying anything negative about an agency. They forbid mindless repetition of unsupported opinions and gross exaggerations. If you have factual information about an agency's standards or policies, and if you are critical of those standards and policies, then go for it. Just stay on an intellectually honest level. That is not bashing. Bashing is saying things like "PADI is the McDonalds of scuba," and it not supposed to be allowed, even when a ScubaBoard staff member says it.

 

[kensuf]

Do you think it would be enough, if every cave diving training agency required a Fundamentals level class as a prerequisite? I know several agencies have an "Intro to Tech"; UTD has its Overhead Protocols class. If everyone came to cave training already with solid buoyancy, solid trim, the ability to hold still and a tolerance for task loading, would instructors be faced as much with the conflict of needing someone's money but not liking their diving?

I think having an "intro to tech" like class is a good idea, but that is not the solution to the particular problem that we're talking about in this thread.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 08:55 AM ----------

A fundies class in each agency would be cool...but some might argue that's what AOW is. Then, back to square 1 - enforce standards or enable meaningless card selling.

AOW is nothing like either intro to tech or fundies.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 08:58 AM ----------

If divers are trained properly and especially if they try to improve during their dives and have an idea of the requirements to take a cave course, they should have a good buoyancy, trim, etc. And the rest should be taught in cavern. Cavern, for some, is just a taste of what cave diving will be, it's something "light", but for others it's the beginning and the courses teach what's needed to progress further.
Due to GUE's philosophy it makes more sense for them to have a mandatory introductory class. In other agencies, not so much. But they exist for those who need, so the instructors can always have a check dive and either accept the students or recommend that they take such class. Or do a longer and more thorough cavern and not let them pass without good skills "because it's just cavern".
But I may be wrong because I went to cave after already having had Adv Nitrox and Deco Proc, diving with doubles, etc. Maybe it is hard if one goes directly from recreational level. But the fundamentals classes are also being pushed to prepare divers for these entry tech courses and in a way I see it as dividing the courses into too small divisions.

Cavern should be taught as step 1 of cave diving. I find it's a more challenging course to teach than intro to cave, unless the intro to cave student came in with a substandard cavern course.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 08:59 AM ----------

Getting GUE trained doesn't solve the issue. There will always be card collectors who don't want a thorough class and high standards. We need to eliminate poorly taught classes.

Just quoting this because it needs to be restated. People simply looking for c-cards should be encouraged to look elsewhere. There should not be two sets of standards (the "you're a local" and "you're from out of state" standard). There should just be one standard, and the bar for it should be high.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 09:07 AM ----------

There will be great financial pressure on the instructor to pass the student who does not really have the skills because taking as long as it would take to correct that would reduce pay to about nil.

This is definitely a problem.

The reality is instructors that do their jobs right rarely fail students, but their student may not pass the course until they are ready and demonstrate they have met the necessary skills, attitude, and ability. It's a subtle difference, but important one.

Going to a model of "pay by the day" may help solve some of this problem.

 

[ucfdiver]

You are right.

But, there will be people who will seek quality, and thus far anybody reading this thread will get a green light for GUE.

During the later 70's Ford and GM built cars that had terrible quality control, and the American public voted with their wallet, and all of suddend Honda, Toyota, and Nissan became household names. Ford and GM cleaned up their act,either meet the public demand or cease to exist.

Since unlike products and services we have Consumer Report or JD Power, something like this doesn't exist in cave diving. We know the obvious, no one will stand up and say this agency is bad or this instructor is bad,but thus far we have gotten unanimous positive comments for GUE. So if I want to learn a set of skills and in an overhead environment being well taught is a survival skill, and I want quality instruction,then GUE is a guarantee-perhaps?

Actually Kelly, I've relayed first hand account of crappy NACD training to the NACD president at that time. Things like <15 minute dives during an intro to cave class, requiring single tanks and no doubles, teaching ceiling walking, teaching the "little river leap" where you push off the walls with your fins, etc. I was told "We kind of hope they just retire soon". During my class with the president at that time, another instructor for the NACD was teaching a CCR cave course at Peacock. His students were placing a jump in the crossover tunnel with one pinned to the ceiling and two kneeling in the mud. The funny thing is when I've posted that story in the past, people knew who I was talking about that let's ccr students kneel in the mud, and PMed me correct guesses. This instructor is still teaching to this day. My intro/full instructor reported a post (which was deleted) to Larry Green (NACD training director at that time) where someone posted a trip report where they took a combined intro to cave and decompression course at Little River. He was informed that they had no way to prove he was teaching for NACD at the time.

I've taken fundies through GUE and can honestly say the fundamental skills required to get a tech pass surpasses what's required to get a full cave card in other agencies. I was able to sit in on a GUE open water course and I would put the level of dive planning and skill level taught there far beyond what was expected in my NACD cavern class.

So is this thread saying, use GUE for high quality, and the rest use everything else???

That's rather blunt, and if I were saying it I would soften it a bit by saying "other agencies do have some good instructors, you just never know what you're getting". When my wife wanted to get certified open water, the only real reason I could think of to go with an agency outside of GUE was ease of course scheduling and to save money. Neither of those seemed like a great option for a long term investment in training.

 

[cerich]

Bashing is saying things like "PADI is the McDonalds of scuba," and it not supposed to be allowed, even when a ScubaBoard staff member says it.

I wasn't bashing, you read it that way. Really, comparing a business to MCd's isn't necessarily a bad thing...there is a reason that McD's are all over the globe and making money.

 

[The Chairman]

While this thread started with great intentions and expectations it's devolved... and now it's beginning to evolve again. You've got the usual Chicken Littles lamenting that 'no one listens to me' and a few 'back in my day'ers who just don't understand how irrelevant and clueless they are coming across. I would say that you know who you are, but you probably don't. It's as unprofessional as it is embarrassing. You may not realize it, but you're as much of the problem as an instructor kneeling in the silt. Ya... rly!

The rules for reporting a poor/unethical/incompetent instructor are pretty universal:

• Be an eye witness. Hearing from a friend or a friend of a friend just doesn't cut it.
• Get all the facts you can within reason. You're not the investigator and they may not want to talk to you.
• Give the facts to the person in charge of that agency's Quality Assurance.
• Shut up, be patient and let them do their job. This is not the time to go blabbing all over social media what you think happened. Don't be surprised that doing this will make your subsequent reports less and less welcome.

Depending on the legal aspects of the case, you may or may not be informed of the outcome. Only Drama Queens need to puff themselves up about how THEY have been listened to or not. Miscommunications, assumptions and observational errors are real and happen to the best of us. It's OK to be wrong about an incident, but it takes humility and insight to accept it. The truth doesn't care about 'who' is right but only about what happened. Turn off the egos and ulterior motivations.

I'm not saying that there's not a problem. In fact, I'm pretty damn proud of the impact social media has had on Scuba training in general and ScubaBoard has been a huge part of that. Fact is, I saw these very same problems twenty, thirty and even forty years ago. They're not new, but our awareness is far, far more developed. We're showing zero tolerance for a lot of things that were simply accepted in years past. Take cavern. That was the place we were supposed to learn about buoyancy, trim and anti-silt techniques. You were 'way ahead of the game' if you had that down coming into a cavern class. Now many expect that skill to be mastered before the class even starts. No, I don't see this as a problem and I applaud the evolution. Unfortunately, we've got a mix of traditional and more modern instructors out there. We all don't teach alike. Add in the newer technologies, like CCR and side mount, and now we have normally (hopefully) competent instructors flailing a bit trying to keep up with the trends. Will they get better? Of course they will. Heck, I used to teach OW on my knees and now I find that anathema. I don't disparage instructors who do (well maybe a little bit), but you won't catch me teaching that way. We all can and hopefully will change. Let's hope for the best.