Cave line vs ziptie

[Gombessa]

Well, I guess my question is, are people replacing the zipties on such inflators with cave line? Or are there special "DIR-compliant" inflators? If so, I missed those on the various lists of things I've seen.

You don't use it when something else is better for the job. I think others have done a pretty good job explaining why a length of cave line is better than a zip tie for snaps.

However, there is no pronouncement that zip-ties are never to be used . When are they better than cave line? In areas where you need clamping pressure (remember, cave line is used on bolt snaps as an attachment point, not airtight or pressure point). Where can you have zip ties? The corrugated inflator hose is fine. The mouthpiece of a second stage regulator is fine. In fact, my GUE instructor told me that he prefers the backup bungee be zip-tied behind the mouthpiece rather than double-knotted. One thing to note is that all of these examples appear to be static connections, with no swinging, swiveling snap acting as a lever arm that can stress the tie or twist/torque it broken.

I have a huge pack of zip ties in my dive tool, because they often come in handy. But they're not superior to cave line for bolt snap attachments, which is why DIR divers don't use them for that application. As for using two zip ties to prevent twisting, sometimes that doesn't work (especially when you'd like to vary the length of the connection), and even when it does, well that's just advocating using multiple items to duplicate the functionality/reliability of a single alternate item, which is practically an admission that the former isn't ideal.

It may be that you're misunderestimating one of the premises behind DIR. The system is not about using whatever method anyone can come up with in order to achieve a defined level of functionality, particularly if that method is inferior or overly complex. It's about creating standards around a solution that's as close to ideal as is practical. For bolt snaps, zip ties aren't better, so they're not used. As clamps for hoses and regulator mouthpieces, they do work. Things have their place.

 

[karstdvr]

On the other hand on some items being able to quickly twist off the zip tie might be nice. Examples are SPG, light head etc... If it gets entangled just quickly twist it off and break the zip tie. Failure of the bolt snap on your SPG will not cause you any real harm that I can think of but being able to quickly break it off in an emergency might be useful...

Things that I want to break off,I prefer an O-ring that will succumb to pressure. My experience is that something like an spg that has gotten stuck,may not be so easily accessible to get to an angle to cause failure. Also,I rediscovered how difficult it can be to get a zip tie to fail. Last weekend I had to replace a datasonde that was zip tied,and all the twisting and pulling wouldn't make it fail,and then it needed a few good slices with the knife to remove it.

 

[MonkSeal]

 

[Bismark]

Its a Non- DIR answer.

Cave line can be cut if required and it doesn't have the issue of breaking when you don't want it too.

You posted in the DIR section and as Jeff said, this is the correct answer.

 

[b1gcountry]

As for using two zip ties to prevent twisting, sometimes that doesn't work (especially when you'd like to vary the length of the connection), and even when it does, well that's just advocating using multiple items to duplicate the functionality/reliability of a single alternate item, which is practically an admission that the former isn't ideal.

This argument seems a little weak to me. After all, I use a couple wraps of cave line to secure all my boltsnaps. I have two shoulder straps on my BP because it stays on my back better.

Using a zip tie for a boltsnap is not dangerous. A lot of people use them. They were even popular with the DIR community a while back. The popular opinion today, however, is that the cave line does a better job, and is more reliable when properly tied. My personal experience with the zip ties is that they do fail somewhat unexpectedly, and it became a pain in the butt to replace them repeatedly. I also found I liked the way the cave line held the boltsnap better.

The big caveat with the cave line is that you do need to get the knot correct. If you tie it improperly, it will be much worse than a zip tie, and it will fall apart almost immediately.

The official party line does not say you need to use cave line to attach boltsnaps. The official line is that you should try to find the best, and most versatile equipment setup. The recommendation of GUE mukity-muks as to the best setup has changed over the years, and it will probably change again. The "official recommendations" are there as a shortcut to divers so they don't have to mess with a bunch of different configurations, and can learn from others experience. The best mindset a DIR diver can have is one that questions everything, including the standards. If you question things, and try them for yourself, you understand them better.

Tom

 

[RTodd]

Using a zip tie for a boltsnap is not dangerous. A lot of people use them. They were even popular with the DIR community a while back.

Really, when was this? Because I can assure you that zipties were out of favor before the term DIR even existed.

 

[Gombessa]

This argument seems a little weak to me. After all, I use a couple wraps of cave line to secure all my boltsnaps. I have two shoulder straps on my BP because it stays on my back better.

Just curious, a couple of wraps on one length of line, or multiple lengths of cave line?

My personal experience with the zip ties is that they do fail somewhat unexpectedly, and it became a pain in the butt to replace them repeatedly. I also found I liked the way the cave line held the boltsnap better.

I'm a bit confused. You said the argument was weak, but then follow up that it corroborates your own experiences (this is what I found as well, and I said it was non-ideal, not dangerous)?

The big caveat with the cave line is that you do need to get the knot correct. If you tie it improperly, it will be much worse than a zip tie, and it will fall apart almost immediately.

I've had that happen (SPG). A buddy of mine did as well (backup light, OOPS). I've also had several zip ties fail. IMO, spending a few minutes to properly knot and melt cave line creates a much more secure connection than using a zip tie, which can fail even without user error.

The official party line does not say you need to use cave line to attach boltsnaps. The official line is that you should try to find the best, and most versatile equipment setup.

I'm sure the standards will change as materials and methods evolve. But that latter sentence isn't particularly helpful, and cave line ties seem to be as much best practice nowadays. It's kind of like saying the official party line never says you should use a bp/w or long hose or at least three lights in a cave. You can argue that on first principles, but my guess is that in practice it wouldn't fly very far?

 

[PfcAJ]

This argument seems a little weak to me. After all, I use a couple wraps of cave line to secure all my boltsnaps. I have two shoulder straps on my BP because it stays on my back better.

Using a zip tie for a boltsnap is not dangerous. A lot of people use them. They were even popular with the DIR community a while back. The popular opinion today, however, is that the cave line does a better job, and is more reliable when properly tied. My personal experience with the zip ties is that they do fail somewhat unexpectedly, and it became a pain in the butt to replace them repeatedly. I also found I liked the way the cave line held the boltsnap better.

The big caveat with the cave line is that you do need to get the knot correct. If you tie it improperly, it will be much worse than a zip tie, and it will fall apart almost immediately.

The official party line does not say you need to use cave line to attach boltsnaps. The official line is that you should try to find the best, and most versatile equipment setup. The recommendation of GUE mukity-muks as to the best setup has changed over the years, and it will probably change again. The "official recommendations" are there as a shortcut to divers so they don't have to mess with a bunch of different configurations, and can learn from others experience. The best mindset a DIR diver can have is one that questions everything, including the standards. If you question things, and try them for yourself, you understand them better.

Tom

...Just... Just stop. Now. Before you make it worse. You're showing your lack of experience and knowlege of DIR/GUE.

 

[Bismark]

This argument seems a little weak to me. After all, I use a couple wraps of cave line to secure all my boltsnaps. I have two shoulder straps on my BP because it stays on my back better.

Using a zip tie for a boltsnap is not dangerous. A lot of people use them. They were even popular with the DIR community a while back. The popular opinion today, however, is that the cave line does a better job, and is more reliable when properly tied. My personal experience with the zip ties is that they do fail somewhat unexpectedly, and it became a pain in the butt to replace them repeatedly. I also found I liked the way the cave line held the boltsnap better.

The big caveat with the cave line is that you do need to get the knot correct. If you tie it improperly, it will be much worse than a zip tie, and it will fall apart almost immediately.

The official party line does not say you need to use cave line to attach boltsnaps. The official line is that you should try to find the best, and most versatile equipment setup. The recommendation of GUE mukity-muks as to the best setup has changed over the years, and it will probably change again. The "official recommendations" are there as a shortcut to divers so they don't have to mess with a bunch of different configurations, and can learn from others experience. The best mindset a DIR diver can have is one that questions everything, including the standards. If you question things, and try them for yourself, you understand them better.

Tom

Tom, gotta take issue with several of your points.

1) If you can't tie a proper knot with caveline, you might want to rethink some of the more difficult tasks........it ain't rocket science.

2) zip ties work in an emergency but they break when you don't want them to. Do enough dives with them and they will break when you REALLY don't want them to. Remove the source of a potential problem and you don't have to come up with a solution.

3)Zip ties have been out of fashion in tieing off equipment for longer than your high school prom dress

4) If you show up to do some serious tech dives with penetration and your boltsnaps are held on with zipties, you won't be diving on our team. I suspect that is the same thing for some serious cave diving. Remove potential problem sources and you remove problems.

When you start accepting less than the optimum solution for anything, you are cutting corners and straying from the mindset that makes DIR so successful. There are short cuts for everything and on the surface some seem okay, until you see how they affect the total team performance. Big problems are rarely if ever the cause of a single event, they are the culmination of a series of things that by themselves were preventable.

Zip ties are suboptimal, therefore we don't use them for attaching boltsnaps. It is really that simple.

 

[b1gcountry]

I'm a bit confused. You said the argument was weak, but then follow up that it corroborates your own experiences (this is what I found as well, and I said it was non-ideal, not dangerous)?

Using two zip ties doesn't factor into the argument either way. You brought up the zip ties used on corrugated hoses. The fact that everyone uses two zip ties at each end isn't an "admission that the former isn't ideal". I agree with your conclusion, just not that particular argument. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I've also had several zip ties fail. IMO, spending a few minutes to properly knot and melt cave line creates a much more secure connection than using a zip tie, which can fail even without user error.

I agree. You went through the process, tried both ways, and saw for yourself the reasons why one approach was better. Isn't this the best way for people to learn things for themselves?

I just get tired of seeing someone asking a simple question in order to learn something, and getting bashed like crazy when they try to figure out more of the reasons behind the answers they get. You've got to stop bashing folks for asking the "Why?"s behind the answers they get.

Tom

PS-Sorry for quoting you Gombessa, my comments are mostly directed elsewhere.