Flag line getting fouled on fins - rope float idea

[Jollymon32]

LOL. And you want to ignore issues of safety?

Nope. Not ignoring. But if I wanted to discuss safety, I would have mentioned it.

I wanted to discuss rigging this type of float attachment.

 

[tursiops]

Nope. Not ignoring. But if I wanted to discuss safety, I would have mentioned it.

I wanted to discuss rigging this type of float attachment.

Why discuss an unsafe rigging? It's like discussing which finger to use for Russian Roulette.

 

[johndiver999]

Thanks for the info and link!

Yes, you do have a point. I have seen these lines to be encapsulated by a stiff hose. I now understand why that is.

Attaching it off to the scooter is an interesting thought. Where do you clip it off on the scooter? I have a feeling if you clip it to the front, it would create an upward force And tilt the nose of the scooter up.

Attaching it to the neck of the tank was an interesting sensation as you can feel the pull of the rope, reel, 150 feet of line that was out, and flag in the 5 foot swells. I understand the concern with attaching it there, however, all the people that I’ve seen that have this type of rigging, attach it to the neck of the tank.

I’m going to re-rig it with the concept of casing it in a much stiffer material, and then test it being attached to the attachment point at the bottom of my back plate and wing. Obviously the stiffer material will keep it from entangling with the fins.

Thanks for the on point input

I find that attachment to the front of my scooter works ok, You generally want to have enough line out that the tension is primarily parallel to the scooter, not pulling upward. I know several very good divers who attach to the rear of the scooter as well.

I've dove with many hundreds of recreational people on local drift dives in south Florida and also dove with many professional divers as well; I've never seen anyone attach a line to their tank valve. Even the backplate seems to be a poor choice because you can not see it.

Another benefit of attaching the floatline to the scooter is that it is much less likely to become lost.

 

[happy-diver]

Predominantly on DPV dives (but sometimes also under normal circumstances)

Sure, but I specifically mentioned, and the forum is, "DPV Diving". Let's see your smart captain find you in 5 foot swells not having a clue which way you went....oh that's right, he was following your bubbles.....

Hey man just see and understand that you are not the only lost diver drifting away here

And this thirty metres in 5 foot swells dragging a float, well that's just indescribably bad

Hey you could include some curling while your down there, if you run out of stuff to do

at least it's an Olympic sport

My captain basically knows where the crowd will end up 3 knot drifting to, also following the bubbles

MY captain NOT YOUR captain knows because at three knots everyone is going to one place
ALSO following the bubbles, or not following completely forever or every day all the bubbles

as I don't have 20 pages to cover everything, especially when there are no bubbles anywhere

In Florida, a boat might drop 5 different teams, each of which will then progress at its own rate. When I have surfaced from such a dive, I typically see the boat in the distance picking up another team. A boat picking up a team of surfaced divers cannot follow your bubbles or the bubbles of any of the other teams.

Yes I comprehend that all things happen differently all over the world everywhere
but I would also describe our crew and blow ins, as straggling clumps, not a team


Who knows why when you are about to dive for an hour when you jump in they require an ok then you're gone

Anyone anyone!

 

[Still Kicking]

And this thirty metres in 5 foot swells dragging a float, well that's just indescribably bad

Yes and not to mention you're not towing anything in 5' swells...it's towing you.

 

[Jollymon32]

I've dove with many hundreds of recreational people on local drift dives in south Florida and also dove with many professional divers as well; I've never seen anyone attach a line to their tank valve. Even the backplate seems to be a poor choice because you can not see it.

Interesting, the three times I have seen this type of rigging used (by a seasoned DM, a prolific diver/spearfisherman. and an experienced friend) the rigging was attached to the neck of the tank. The DM even hung their catch bag and lobster stick from the float end so they would not have to carry it around (this was a drift dive, no DPV).

As for attaching to the scooter, for beach dives this may work as we ( I ) don't usually go when there is any type of waves or swell, we prefer "Lake Atlantic". But honestly on the deep dive with like 150' of line out, the float trailing behind, and then the float and flag in 5 foot swells, the drag would have a huge effect on the scooters alignment, it was having this effect on me - pulling up and behind, so I cannot fathom how in this use case it can be attached to the scooter.

What scooter do you have? We are diving Genesis scooters and usually at a high rate of speed - so that also may impact on the viability of attaching the rig to the scooter.

Again, thanks for your insights!

 

[Jollymon32]

Yes and not to mention you're not towing anything in 5' swells...it's towing you.

You underestimate the power of Genesis scooters.

 

[Jollymon32]

Why discuss an unsafe rigging? It's like discussing which finger to use for Russian Roulette.

An apt analogy, If ones flag or flag line i) gets fouled by a boat's prop ii) stolen by a boater iii)played chicken with by boaters iv) pulled up by boaters v) hit by lightning or vi) any of the other often repeated anecdotes, once every 6 or 8 outings (your chances at Russian roulette).

But we know that is not the case.

There are a handful or maybe a score of these stories in 100's of thousands of dives over the same period.

Sure, it can happen. A helicopter may crash into a plane - but that does not stop anyone from getting into a plane as it is much more efficient than driving. Same here, having both of your hands free is much more efficient than hanging a reel off one of them.

Honestly, I believe that, when weighted for the probability of occurring, the safety risk of the flag line fouling your fins is much greater than a boat fouling the line.

 

[tursiops]

An apt analogy, If ones flag or flag line i) gets fouled by a boat's prop ii) stolen by a boater iii)played chicken with by boaters iv) pulled up by boaters v) hit by lightning or vi) any of the other often repeated anecdotes, once every 6 or 8 outings (your chances at Russian roulette).

But we know that is not the case.

There are a handful or maybe a score of these stories in 100's of thousands of dives over the same period.

Sure, it can happen. A helicopter may crash into a plane - but that does not stop anyone from getting into a plane as it is much more efficient than driving. Same here, having both of your hands free is much more efficient than hanging a reel off one of them.

Honestly, I believe that, when weighted for the probability of occurring, the safety risk of the flag line fouling your fins is much greater than a boat fouling the line.

Do you carry a spare cutting tool or computer? Why? How often has one not been enough?
In addition to the probability of occurrence, you need to consider the consequences of occurrence.
A rare event that results in DCS or death should not be immediately dismissed just because it is rare.
Good luck.

 

[johndiver999]

Interesting, the three times I have seen this type of rigging used (by a seasoned DM, a prolific diver/spearfisherman. and an experienced friend) the rigging was attached to the neck of the tank. The DM even hung their catch bag and lobster stick from the float end so they would not have to carry it around (this was a drift dive, no DPV).

As for attaching to the scooter, for beach dives this may work as we ( I ) don't usually go when there is any type of waves or swell, we prefer "Lake Atlantic". But honestly on the deep dive with like 150' of line out, the float trailing behind, and then the float and flag in 5 foot swells, the drag would have a huge effect on the scooters alignment, it was having this effect on me - pulling up and behind, so I cannot fathom how in this use case it can be attached to the scooter.

What scooter do you have? We are diving Genesis scooters and usually at a high rate of speed - so that also may impact on the viability of attaching the rig to the scooter.

Again, thanks for your insights!

I am using old, weaker scooters.. Dacor.

If you are diving in 100 feet of water with 150 ft of line, you are doing it wrong. You probably want around 300 feet of line out for those conditions, unless there is no current and/or you are not scootering anywhere fast.

The whole reason I use a line stiffener is because I screw up and get the floatline wrapped on my tank valve, Then when I stop, I have an uncontrolled float pulling me through the water (from the back of my neck) - how someone would view this as a desirable situation is a mystery to me. Usually I am alone and have to take the entire tank off just to free myself from the entanglement.

As for swell causing you problems, some of the solutions are: more line, or using an elastic section for the last few feet of the line where the float attaches and/or using 2 or more smaller floats in series,

A 3-4 foot bungi section between smaller floats works really well to insulate you from rough surface conditions. My buddy use to have that and it was nice, but I never bothered to make that sort of configuration, probably because we use much more scope than you seem to do.