Cave 1 / Intro Expiration & Limits

[Marie13]

They said they dont feel that pushing that far is safe, and that they would not do the dives with someone. They actually gave justification for why pushing THAT far as an intro diver is a bad idea.

Getting testy with them isn't going to help, it just sparks a new and bigger e-contest. Learned a long time ago it's better to keep it to yourself sometime, if you dont want their opinion, inwouldnt solicit it. If you do want their opinions, dont immediately argue with them, but present your counter position in a less confrontational way. You're dealing with a group of people whom are very technically skilled in what they do.... some of them ARE the subject matter experts. People like that tend not to take a confrontational tone lightly, and will growl back when they're growled at.

Tone down the rhetoric, stop taking offense, and relax.

@CaveSloth

Have you taken @kensuf up on his offer of talking with you off the forum? He’s a well respected cave instructor and would probably get your questions answered pretty quickly.

 

[CaveSloth]

@CaveSloth

Have you taken @kensuf up on his offer of talking with you off the forum? He’s a well respected cave instructor and would probably get your questions answered pretty quickly.

I appreciate his offer and will consider reaching out when shopping for an instructor.

 

[Marie13]

I appreciate his offer and will consider reaching out when shopping for an instructor.

Why are you hesitant to ask questions without “instructor shopping”? You seem to have a massive amount of questions. He offered. Ask your questions, get things straightened out, and then your path will be clearer. I don’t get the hesitation.

 

[tursiops]

Why are you hesitant to ask questions without “instructor shopping”? You seem to have a massive amount of questions. He offered. Ask your questions, get things straightened out, and then your path will be clearer. I don’t get the hesitation.

It is beginning to sound like he doesn't really want input, what he wants is validation.

 

[CaveSloth]

What questions do I have? The questions I had in this thread are already answered. I now know that many cave divers think that one must get cave 1, do many dives to 6ths, then get cave 2 before diving to 3rds. I wouldn’t know how to start the conversation with him at this point. If he’d just like to talk about whatever while I listen then I’m open to that. Maybe we can skype or something. Let’s do it.

 

[CaveSloth]

It is beginning to sound like he doesn't really want input, what he wants is validation.

Are you reading my words? I’ve been invalidated by this thread and it has changed my perspective and intentions about how to proceed in my training.

 

[taimen]

After you have completed full cave with a good instructor, you realize that the training was not excessive for diving caves safely.

 

[tursiops]

Are you reading my words? I’ve been invalidated by this thread and it has changed my perspective and intentions about how to proceed in my training.

Thank you for saying that so clearly. I was reading your previous posts through #42 as being unwilling to rethink your position, and passive-aggressively not arguing.

 

[rddvet]

What questions do I have? The questions I had in this thread are already answered. I now know that many cave divers think that one must get cave 1, do many dives to 6ths, then get cave 2 before diving to 3rds. I wouldn’t know how to start the conversation with him at this point. If he’d just like to talk about whatever while I listen then I’m open to that. Maybe we can skype or something. Let’s do it.

If you’re cave one there’s no need to dive to 1/6. You would dive to conservative thirds. You wouldn’t do any major navigational decisions like circuits. Eventually you would want to do cave 2 because there’s always more to learn.

 

[kensuf]

What questions do I have? The questions I had in this thread are already answered. I now know that many cave divers think that one must get cave 1, do many dives to 6ths, then get cave 2 before diving to 3rds.

I think there is a misunderstanding that because they are each a "first step into cave diving" that Intro, Apprentice, and Cave 1 are the same program. They're not.

Before I try to illustrate the differences, let's start with a quick discussion about the final outcomes of all cave programs -- Intro, Apprentice, and Cave 1 were never meant to be end points -- the final end is FULL CAVE, period. This comes back to the very first rule of accident analysis -- untrained and incompletely trained cave divers have a poor safety record in cave environments. No amount of openwater experience can properly prepare anyone for the cave environment, heck, even OW instructors have a poor track record in caves. I can give several examples of OW instructors that died cave diving because they didn't know what they didn't know.

So let's accept that Intro, Apprentice, and Cave 1 were designed to each be a stopping point to refine skills and let everything sink in before proceeding to the next block. Let's also accept that if a person is going to regularly cave dive, they need to complete their education and work towards being a full cave diver eventually.

Now, with an understanding that "Full Cave" is the eventual outcome, let's look at the journey on how we get there. As I've said before, Intro, Apprentice, and Cave 1 are different points on that journey and are representative of the amount of training that has gone into the total trip. The differences in the amount of training that has gone into each stop is why Intro, Apprentice, and Cave 1 have different limits (1/6ths vs 50 cubic feet vs 1/3rds).

To illustrate where each sits on the journey towards Full Cave, I'm going to use a metaphor of a 10 mile hike with 0 being OW Instructor (or AOW diver or whatever, zero overhead training) and a full cave diver with stage being mile 10.

Mile 0 - AOW Diver, Divemaster, or OW Instructor - someone with zero training for the overhead.

Mile 2 - Cavern, Intro to Tech, or Fundies. Usually 2 to 4 days, outcome: Understanding of tech/cave gear, propulsion techniques, buoyancy, trim.

Mile 3 - Intro to Cave or old NSS-CDS Basic Cave. 2 days past Cavern/Intro to Tech/Fundies. Outcome: Tying into the gold line, most basic penetrations (1/6ths).

Mile 4 - New NSS-CDS Apprentice. 4 days past Cavern/Intro to Tech/Fundies. Outcome: Tying into the gold line, most basic penetrations but a little more liberal on gas (up to 50 cubic feet, or 1/3rds, whichever is less).

Mile 5 - GUE Cave 1. 5 days past Fundies. Outcome: Extended penetrations (1/3rd of 2/3rds) and navigation beyond one permanent T (and multiple gaps but no jumps).

Mile 6 - NAUI Cave 1 and old NSS-CDS Apprentice. 6 days past Intro to Tech/Fundies. Outcome: Extended penetration (1/3rds) and two navigational decisions (jumps or t's).

Mile 8 - Full Cave Diver. 8 days past Intro to Tech/Fundies. Outcome: Extended penetration (1/3rds), unlimited navigational (jumps/t's/gaps), circuits and traverses.

Mile 10 - Full Cave + Stage, Cave 2 (both NAUI/GUE). 10 (or more) days past Intro to Tech/Fundies. Outcome: Extended penetration (1/3rds) with stage bottle use.

As you can see, the amount of time to get to that first step is different between the agencies and that's why the outcomes (what the diver can do) is also different. There are various philosophical reasons why those first steps are different, but at the end of the day, they all are in basic agreement that the final step is supposed to be full cave and that the first step is simply a stopping point on the journey.

Whew, this is longer winded than I had expected... Hope it makes sense.