Buddy Breathing

[Captain Bil]

Please understand NAUI's swimming standard. Competent watermanship is still required, it just that you know the competent swimmers from those who can't cut it within a few strokes of the edge of the poor, yes? There's nothing wrong with completing the swim if you want, but please do not assume that the swimming requirement has been dropped.

I quote NAUI's Standards and Policies Manual for you: "...Students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles..." The old wording was for completion of a 200 meter swim, un-timed, any stroke. So what is this "competent watermanship" to which you refer? I posit that NAUI (and most of the others) have dropped the 200 meter swim requirement because as the population gets fatter and lazier, less of them can actually swim 200 meters without having a heart attack, thereby reducing the pool of avaialble students. Their solution it seems is to relax the standards.

So yes, IMHO, NAUI has in fact dropped the swim requirement, as I don't believe 15 strokes is swimming.

 

[Interceptor121]

15 strokes? Is that a joke. Why even bother!

 

[oldogre]

I did it in the pool tonight for the first time, really as a test for comfort & buoyancy control. It was fun!

 

[oly5050user]

Also, CESA should be last ditch IMO. PADI teaches buddy breathing as last ditch but the chances of a diver successfully preforming a CESA from a deep depth like 100' with no DCI seems highly unlikely. 60ft per min from 100ft is NDL as far as PADI is concerned but you are probably increasing your risk for serious injury if you do it.

last ditch recommended by PADI is a buoyant ascent.
Performing a cesa from 100' is really no big deal.Should not have to perform a CESA from that depth if you remember to check spg, and stay close to your buddy that has a required alt air source,but that is another discussion.
Ascent rate of 60' per min is mostly very safe,people have a tendency to THINK they are going slow,but in reality may be going twice that speed.
As to either drowning or going for a chamber ride,I pick the chamber ride.DCS can be cured usually,drowning is not,drowning is dead...PADI is teaching recreational diving when recommending a CESA from recreational diving depths, which is no decompression diving-staying within ndl limits,so a CESA from 100' at an ascent rate of 60' per minute,does not necessarily mean a DCS hit.
So you may miss your safety stop,big deal.Its called a safety stop,not a decompression stop for a reason.Safety stop adds a bit of conservatism.Miss a safety stop and the world is not going to end.Divers for years did thousands and thousands of dives, on the old NAVY tables which called for a ndl of 25 minutes at 100' and ascended directly to the surface at a ascent rate of 60' per minute and majority never suffered a dcs hit.

 

[Sloth]

last ditch recommended by PADI is a buoyant ascent.
Performing a cesa from 100' is really no big deal.Should not have to perform a CESA from that depth if you remember to check spg, and stay close to your buddy that has a required alt air source,but that is another discussion.
Ascent rate of 60' per min is mostly very safe,people have a tendency to THINK they are going slow,but in reality may be going twice that speed.
As to either drowning or going for a chamber ride,I pick the chamber ride.DCS can be cured usually,drowning is not,drowning is dead...PADI is teaching recreational diving when recommending a CESA from recreational diving depths, which is no decompression diving-staying within ndl limits,so a CESA from 100' at an ascent rate of 60' per minute,does not necessarily mean a DCS hit.
So you may miss your safety stop,big deal.Its called a safety stop,not a decompression stop for a reason.Safety stop adds a bit of conservatism.Miss a safety stop and the world is not going to end.Divers for years did thousands and thousands of dives, on the old NAVY tables which called for a ndl of 25 minutes at 100' and ascended directly to the surface at a ascent rate of 60' per minute and majority never suffered a dcs hit.

Yeah i always forget about the buoyancy ascent since i rule it out because its so dangerous.

A CESA from 100' at 60fpm ascent probably wont result in a DCS but the chance of a DCI in a diver not comfortable doing a CESA is high which is why i have problems with PADI dropping buddy breathing.

Decompression Injury (DCI) includes DCS and barotrauma related injuries in its definition. I believe the medical community is phasing out the term DCS for the most part and treats AGE and DCS similarly since the symptoms and treatment are similar.

 

[Thalassamania]

last ditch recommended by PADI is a buoyant ascent.
Performing a cesa from 100' is really no big deal.Should not have to perform a CESA from that depth if you remember to check spg, and stay close to your buddy that has a required alt air source,but that is another discussion.
Ascent rate of 60' per min is mostly very safe,people have a tendency to THINK they are going slow,but in reality may be going twice that speed.
As to either drowning or going for a chamber ride,I pick the chamber ride.DCS can be cured usually,drowning is not,drowning is dead...PADI is teaching recreational diving when recommending a CESA from recreational diving depths, which is no decompression diving-staying within ndl limits,so a CESA from 100' at an ascent rate of 60' per minute,does not necessarily mean a DCS hit.
So you may miss your safety stop,big deal.Its called a safety stop,not a decompression stop for a reason.Safety stop adds a bit of conservatism.Miss a safety stop and the world is not going to end.Divers for years did thousands and thousands of dives, on the old NAVY tables which called for a ndl of 25 minutes at 100' and ascended directly to the surface at a ascent rate of 60' per minute and majority never suffered a dcs hit.

In 1957 the then new tables were calculated to permit an ascent rate of 60 fpm, a compromise between the combat swimmers who wanted 100 FPM (of even greater) and the hard hat divers who were happy at 25 FPM. The "correct" ascent rate is not an absolute, but rather one adjustable variable that is used when you develop a table in the first place.

Yeah i always forget about the buoyancy ascent since i rule it out because its so dangerous.

It is easy to do a buoyant ascent properly and when properly done it is no more dangerous than a CESA.

A CESA from 100' at 60fpm ascent probably wont result in a DCS but the chance of a DCI in a diver not comfortable doing a CESA is high which is why i have problems with PADI dropping buddy breathing.

DCS (aka DCI) is not the primay issue in ascents, AGE is.

Decompression Injury (DCI) includes DCS and barotrauma related injuries in its definition. I believe the medical community is phasing out the term DCS for the most part and treats AGE and DCS similarly since the symptoms and treatment are similar.

The Docs care about cure, not cause, and the cure (a chamber ride to a depth where this is relief) is what is called for in both cases. But just because the cure is the same does not mean that the cause is the same or that prevention has any similarity.

 

[Thalassamania]

I quote NAUI's Standards and Policies Manual for you: "...Students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles..." The old wording was for completion of a 200 meter swim, un-timed, any stroke. So what is this "competent watermanship" to which you refer? I posit that NAUI (and most of the others) have dropped the 200 meter swim requirement because as the population gets fatter and lazier, less of them can actually swim 200 meters without having a heart attack, thereby reducing the pool of avaialble students. Their solution it seems is to relax the standards.

So yes, IMHO, NAUI has in fact dropped the swim requirement, as I don't believe 15 strokes is swimming.

15 strokes? Is that a joke. Why even bother!

Since I am the person who wrote that standard I guess you've come to the right place with your question. The NAUI standard is not a prohibition against conducting any sort of watermanship test that you might wish to have ... you can have a 5 mile swim if you want. But many good and prudent instructors realized that it only takes a few strokes to see if someone knows how to swim well, you can sort them out rather quickly. So the standard was worded that why to permit the sort of evaluation that I know to work well, without limiting what might be done. It is only silly when you bring a PADI minimum standard mindset to the evaluation process.

 

[Van Isle]

Buddy breathing is dangerous. For it to be required by the modern diver with modern gear and modern configuration a whole host of improbable things have to happen all of which can be prevented or served by by many other more acceptable and safer strategies.

For those in the camp "well it's another tool..." do you also practice or teach breathing off of tanks? Breathing through the BC and oral inflater? Do you equip yourself with a 3rd second stage? A 4th? How many redundant air sources do you carry? Do you know how to buddy breath/share air with a rebreather diver? How good is your knowledge of trimix gas tables in the event that you need to share air with a trimix diver? Do you know how to deploy another diver's pony?

There is a point where "all" the ways a life can be saved just are not required to be taught. Statistically it is safer to not teach or practice buddy breathing than to have that "tool." If it is required for YOUR diving to have that skill, well practice it. I dive only with recreational limits but I am still much, much more likely for me to be OOA and have to share air with a rebreather or technical diver (probably on a custom mix) than for me to be OOA and my buddy's alternate fail in some magical mode where it doesn't provide air necessitating a BB.

Kudos to the agency which will spend more time on real skills rather than vintage memories.

VI

 

[Thalassamania]

... Statistically it is safer to not teach or practice buddy breathing than to have that "tool."
...

I'd be quite interested in seeing the raw data and the analysis that back up that claim.

 

[Sloth]

DCS (aka DCI) is not the primay issue in ascents, AGE is.

Get with the times Thal, DCI is a term used to describe DCS and AGE. Hell it's even in the current PADI open water manual.