BP/W DM Course??

[Jim Lapenta]

Size is meaningless. Part of the exercise that I see many people, including instructors, not get is that pre dive planning plays a large part in it. You try to buddy up with someone of similar size. If that's not possible you plan alternative solutions. The exercise is not just done in the pool. The entire scenario is planned out and executed according to the plan. So in that case the exercise is one in skills, knowledge, planning, problem solving, and adjustment to changing conditions under water. And yes a person's size is a changing condition.

I need script lenses so I will swap masks twice. My fins size L or XL depending on boots I'm using, my buddy's a medium. They won't even go on my feet. So we swap twice. That is part of the plan and a demonstration of planning solving a problem in conjunction with skills.

BC? Who cares. Does not need to fit. As long as one buckle can be fastened a pro should be able to get in trim, swim with a buddy while buddy breathing, and make a safe ascent. If they can't they probably should not be in a DM class yet.

When I did my crossover to the YMCA/NAUI programs I discovered entirely new schools of thought and what was expected out of a "professional". It had nothing to do with selling. It was all about skills and education. We were encouraged to use as many different types of gear as possible. We could use our own or the shops. I usually chose the shops so I did not have to haul mine. What that meant was one week I'd be in back inflate, one week a jacket. Sometimes I'd get handed an XL or XXL BC because the ML that fit me was in use by a student. It was expected that we could take any BC we could put on and make it work. The only one I really had trouble with was a small that I could not fasten save for one buckle. It was barely on but it worked.

I would not expect an OW student to be able to do that. But a DM? Yes.

 

[Ste Wart]

'Suck it up' maybe?

I had be the 2nd for a DMC's equipment exchange and she was markedly smaller than me. And I'm pretty small. I could get her BC on but couldn't really fasten it, and there was no hope with her fins so I stuck them under my armpit and dealt with it.

Like, I don't know...... solving a problem

I am sorry but I find your explanations unsatisfactory. First, the "been in requirements forever" is not justification but rather an excuse. A real educational organization reviews its curriculum periodically to make sure it is still relevant and that real word skills are taught. As an instructor I would not expect you to do this but someone in PADI HQ should. Second, I do not see you solving a problem, I see you creating one by donning ill fitting gear. Also why not put the fins on your hands and do the breast stroke? It is near impossible to move underwater in full kit without fins on your feet.

If you want a candidate to perform under stressful circumstances I am sure you can think up more relevant exercises than a gear swap. I am sure Jim L. could have his OW students do it if he pared them up according to size.

Another example.

I was teaching a rescue course with two girls. One small and slight the other tall and overweight. The larger girl went first exiting the water with the smaller girl, dragging her up the beach and starting CPR (simulated obviously). It was then time to swap roles, the larger girl then said "can you be the victim for her" , as I was only slightly taller than the other girl (As I said, I'm pretty short). I refused, because in a given a situation you just have to deal with it. In all fairness the smaller girl struggled but she did exit. Which in a given situation is all you can ask for.

EDIT:

For the record when I did my DM equipment exchange it was with my instructor. He was around 6'2, I'm 5'7" and had only 20 dives under my belt. I didn't complain, I just got on with it.

 

[ams511]

Another example.

I was teaching a rescue course with two girls. One small and slight the other tall and overweight. The larger girl went first exiting the water with the smaller girl, dragging her up the beach and starting CPR (simulated obviously). It was then time to swap roles, the larger girl then said "can you be the victim for her" , as I was only slightly taller than the other girl (As I said, I'm pretty short). I refused, because in a given a situation you just have to deal with it. In all fairness the smaller girl struggled but she did exit. Which in a given situation is all you can ask for.

EDIT:

For the record when I did my DM equipment exchange it was with my instructor. He was around 6'2, I'm 5'7" and had only 20 dives under my belt. I didn't complain, I just got on with it.

How did you do that? The requirements for a PADI Divemaster is 40 dives. Also if your instructor was larger you should have no trouble. He would have the trouble but he is not the person being graded.

I am not trying to be difficult but in over 20 years of diving, I never needed to swap gear underwater with a buddy. Nor do I suspect people with more experience than me ever had to. So I fail to see the real world application of this test. If for example you require the diver to wear a black out mask and the swim trough fishing line and require him to cut his way out of the gear or take it off to extricate himself. That to me would be a real life test.

 

[Ste Wart]

I did my DM 10 years ago. The req was 20.

You are being difficult though. It is a problem solving exercise. Nothing more

 

[ams511]

So if I did a DM 20 years ago, when my OW instructor was prodding me to I would only need 10 dives? What does this say about PADI standards?

I am sorry you think I am difficult because I am asking questions you cannot answer.

 

[RJP]

I am not trying to be difficult but in over 20 years of diving, I never needed to swap gear underwater with a buddy. Nor do I suspect people with more experience than me ever had to. So I fail to see the real world application of this test.

You're not being difficult. You're just being dense.



This was answered some 50-or-so posts ago. The purpose of the exercise is to see whether you can calmly, methodically perform a series of coordinated tasks with another diver in a stressful situation. Yes, it's artificial. No, will you ever need to perform this exact skill. Nor will you ever need to spontaneously perform a fin pivot at any point in time, or pull your own reg out and recover it, or pull your mask up over your head and immediately put it back on, or purposely fully flood and clear your mask, etc. There are plenty of skills that are "simulations" that are utilized at all levels of scuba training. The DM gear is exchange is just one of them.

 

[Ste Wart]

So if I did a DM 20 years ago, when my OW instructor was prodding me to I would only need 10 dives? What does this say about PADI standards?

Entry req is 20.

I am sorry you think I am difficult because I am asking questions you cannot answer.

I've answered several times with the explanation. It is a problem solving exercise. There is no real life application.

 

[ams511]

You're not being difficult. You're just being dense.



This was answered some 50-or-so posts ago. The purpose of the exercise is to see whether you can calmly, methodically perform a series of coordinated tasks with another diver in a stressful situation. Yes, it's artificial. No, will you ever need to perform this exact skill. Nor will you ever need to spontaneously perform a fin pivot at any point in time, or pull your own reg out and recover it, or pull your mask up over your head and immediately put it back on, or purposely fully flood and clear your mask, etc. There are plenty of skills that are "simulations" that are utilized at all levels of scuba training. The DM gear is exchange is just one of them.

I am not being dense you are. An instructor's time is valuable as is a student's. So wasting time on irrelevant tests is not a productive use of time and does not produce a better diver. If you have evidence to the contrary please post it.

---------- Post added May 12th, 2013 at 12:04 PM ----------

Entry req is 20.


I've answered several times with the explanation. It is a problem solving exercise. There is no real life application.

Do you really think someone is ready for professional responsibilities with only 20 dives?

 

[RJP]

I am not being dense you are. An instructor's time is valuable as is a student's. So wasting time on irrelevant tests is not a productive use of time and does not produce a better diver. If you have evidence to the contrary please post it.

OK. Now you're being difficult.

Do you accept that it is a reasonable expectation that a DM should be able to work calmly, and methodically, through a series of tasks with another diver in order to solve a problem underwater while under a little bit of stress? If so, yet believe the gear exchange is not a valid way for the DM's instructor to evaluate this, what alternative(s) would you offer?

 

[ams511]

OK. Now you're being difficult.

Do you accept that it is a reasonable expectation that a DM should be able to work calmly, and methodically, through a series of tasks with another diver in order to solve a problem underwater while under a little bit of stress? If so, yet believe the gear exchange is not a valid way for the DM's instructor to evaluate this, what alternative(s) would you offer?

Stewart has already conceded that this test has no real life applications. So please post your evidence to the contrary. I am open minded and would like to see it.