Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

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Parts of the GUE Rec 1 - Nitrox syllabi (to balance some mentions of Fundie, aka not OW, standards):
5 days, 14 dives, 40 hours of instruction (class, land drills, water work)
Academics:
- Gas management, decompression
Land:
- analyze cylinders, S drill, propulsion, SBM, straight compass nav.
Water:
- 4:1 student instructor ratio
- Donate and ascend
- two propulsion techniques for silt; backward kick components
- max 30 degrees off horizontal while within 5 feet of a target depth.
- long hose deployment
- basic 5 rescue techniques
It’s not forty, it’s AT LEAST forty hours of instruction.
 
How are the Instructor Candidates demonstrating the skills during their IDC now? Still on their knees or...?
The IE is being completely redone this year, so I don't know what will come with it. When they asked for input, I talked about this issue, and I was told that I should not worry about it--it would be addressed.

Here is one promising sign.

A couple years ago I was working for a shop whose Director of Instruction had gotten his certification through one of those large instructor training programs. We had a major falling out, because he wanted us to do DM training on dive schools exactly as he had learned them. He had videos from that operation showing every skill being done anchored to the floor on the knees. I refused to do it, and I ended up talking with PADI headquarters about it. I was told they did not like the fact that the big instructional programs did that, but they do it because they want to be able to guarantee that their students will pass the IE. They therefore stick to tried and true routines.

About a year or so ago, he went back to that place for advanced instructor training and, guess what? They had totally redone all their videos and were now teaching all skills neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim. I assume they still want their students to pass the IE.
 
you cannot expect the average IDC candidate to have GUE fundies rec pass skill
I’m not saying I’m a great diver and have flawless skills or anything like that and I passed fundies after 34 dives. Fundies skill requirements really isn’t too hard to get a rec pass!! It’s the Tech pass...

Let's not forget, the vast majority of people interested in diving don't give a F about buoyancy, trim, proper finning. They just want to go underwater and look at some pretty fish. They really don't care if they kick the coral a few times.

Those people shouldn’t be allowed to dive.
 
I’m not saying I’m a great diver and have flawless skills or anything like that and I passed fundies after 34 dives. Fundies skill requirements really isn’t too hard to get a rec pass!! It’s the Tech pass...

You're not kidding! I have GUE Tech 1 and GUE Tech 2 C-cards, but I still don't have a Fundies card. True story! :confused:
 
Could someone list what gear I need to replace so I can dive with the other "90% of divers in the world"?

As a GUE diver, you don't need to replace any gear. The other 90% of divers accept the gear you use.

I think the issue is the other way around: what gear would the 90% of other divers need to replace to be able to dive with you.

Or another way to look at it: if you must have GUE gear, you should just plan to always bring your own gear with you when you travel. Personally, I don't think that's a big issue, but some people prefer the convenience of renting gear when they travel. If you're GUE, you might find only forbidden gear is available for rent.
 
Why do you not like the use of helium after 30m? It’s a bit more expensive for a gas that increases safety...

Some might argue that using helium for a 100 ft / 30 m dive is a lot like wearing a helmet (maybe the kind that F1 drivers use?) while driving your car in everyday traffic. Sure, you could argue that it's "safer"... but millions of people drive cars every day without wearing helmets and somehow survive just fine.

To be practical, the benefit really should outweigh the cost and inconvenience.
 
You're not kidding! I have GUE Tech 1 and GUE Tech 2 C-cards, but I still don't have a Fundies card. True story! :confused:

I’m clueless so this is an honest question. How is that possible?

You’ve been waived by the powers that be!?!
 
As a GUE diver, you don't need to replace any gear. The other 90% of divers accept the gear you use.

I think the issue is the other way around: what gear would the 90% of other divers need to replace to be able to dive with you.

Or another way to look at it: if you must have GUE gear, you should just plan to always bring your own gear with you when you travel. Personally, I don't think that's a big issue, but some people prefer the convenience of renting gear when they travel. If you're GUE, you might find only forbidden gear is available for rent.
Forbidden gear? Be still my beating heart...
 
@KenGordon - I think it is unethical to take parts of what GUE brought to the table and pass it off as SOP in their watered down agencies - as though they are somehow innovators - when in reality they are leeches.

Thank you for providing an example of what others in this thread suggested should not be exported from GUE.
 
It really varies, but I believe generally on the knees. Given the lack of objective standards for skills mastery (i.e., depth changes, maintenance of trim, etc.), you cannot expect the average IDC candidate to have GUE fundies rec pass skills. You simply are not going to generate the number of instructors required by the industry each year.

Let's not forget, the vast majority of people interested in diving don't give a F about buoyancy, trim, proper finning. They just want to go underwater and look at some pretty fish. They really don't care if they kick the coral a few times.

My PADI IE was in December 2015, almost 3 years ago. My IDC was on the knees. My IE was on the knees. I really don't think that one can consider a skill mastered when it is performed on the knees. I've heard of a few IE's being performed neutrally buoyant, but those are the exception (but awesome nonetheless). I've heard of some IE's where candidates were forced on the knees. In December, I can hang out and see in the open water how PADI conducts their IEs (they conduct 2 per year).

And it isn't just PADI, but virtually every mainstream agency. SSI has a stronger emphasis on neutral buoyancy, but they still don't require all skills to be performed off the bottom and trim. They would like it. AFAIK, of the mainstream agencies, it is only RAID, whom as I've said before, I hope grows by leaps and bounds for the sole reason that they have objective standards (mentioned previously) and they have a rigorous crossover process.

Honestly, I don't expect any of the larger mainstream agencies to require that all instructors teach OW neutrally buoyant, because many of their instructors cannot do it themselves. The number of instructors and DMs generated each year would decrease. The last OW course I taught, there was an instructor working with an DMC, all on their knees, in sharp contrast to my students all neutrally buoyant. My DMs and my students alike thought it was an open water student.

How messed up is that?

Let's be serious for a minute. Are all CD's/IT's capable of performing skills neutrally buoyant, trim, and just as fluid, comfortable, and repeatable as they would on the knees? We all know this isn't the case. Do we expect the mainstream agencies to tell their instructors, CD's/IT's, DM's, to ship up or ship out? That's a lot of money in terms of membership dues, and let's not forget that this is a business first. Same with the IEs. Lower pass rates, lower membership dues being paid.

At least with RAID, GUE, UTD, and ISE you can be guaranteed that their open water courses are going to be performed properly and their instructor can teach that way. For those agencies, the credence that "it is the instructor, not the agency" doesn't apply as much as it does for everyone else.

The things the dive industry finds acceptable is really bad.
 

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