Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[boulderjohn]

I don't think it's possible to keep the current duration and cost of OW classes and get the same experience as Fundies. I

So you are saying an introductory open water course designed for people who have never dived is not giving the same experience as a course designed to prepare experienced diverse for cave diving unless it is made longer.

Who would have thought?

 

[elgoog]

So you are saying an introductory open water course designed for people who have never dived is not giving the same experience as a course designed to prepare experienced diverse for cave diving unless it is made longer.
Who would have thought?

I should have said "introductory GUE course" and not "Fundies". From what I've gleaned, Fundies and Rec 1 are quite similar in what they bring to the table and the requirements to pass. When I did Fundies part 1, I started with around 20 dives and those were spread out over 5 years so I consider myself having started Fundies essentially right after OW. I mean, I knew how to setup my rig (mostly), breath from a reg and clear my mask but that was about it.

For divers who are more experienced and are using Fundies as a gateway into the GUE system, what I said in my previous post is not applicable at all.

 

[taimen]

I truly believe some ppl are naturally divers and some of us aren’t. My husband is much more of a natural than I am, for example, and we trained and dived together.

Sure there are differences in how people learn. But our natural behavior in water is trying to keep our head as high as possible above the surface. Everything else in scuba diving is an acquired skill. I believe early instruction is very important for that.
Actually for the stuff done during GUE fundamentals gear matters quite a lot. If your drysuit does not fit well, or you have an undersuit that releases gas slowly you are going to blow the ascents for sure.

 

[Dogbowl]

Sure there are differences in how people learn. But our natural behavior in water is trying to keep our head as high as possible above the surface. Everything else in scuba diving is an acquired skill. I believe early instruction is very important for that.
Actually for the stuff done during GUE fundamentals gear matters quite a lot. If your drysuit does not fit well, or you have an undersuit that releases gas slowly you are going to blow the ascents for sure.

Unfortunately, I cannot blame my gear, as I dive a wetsuit. It's more a matter of my brain telling my body to do something, and my body doesn't do it well. Eventually, it will get there, but it takes more time than maybe the next diver. It's kind of like how some people just "get" math, but others don't, or how some people are strong with languages and others aren't.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

My girlfriend is a pro figure skater. She watched me teach the trim, buoyancy, and propulsion dog & pony show several times then asked me to explain the skills to her. I kid you not. She did every skill underwater in a hotel pool holding her breath and hovering neutral wearing a facemask and a 3mm wetsuit without weight ... flutter, mod flutter, shuffle, frog, mod frog, backward kick, helo turns. On the turns she turned her head and body into the turn rather than remaining straight. Other than that, she did a great job! She did each one at a time not all in one breath hold. But, it showed her ability to process how her body moves far better than the average person. In scuba, she can't do it. She's not comfy in scuba. She is afraid of it. She enjoys freediving.

 

[KevinNM]

If the industry needs that many instructors so badly, why is it so hard for them to make a living wage.

The industry needs them like the way the lawn care industry needs illegal aliens. Because they can't pay a decent salary to people as they bought into the industry business model that that they don't charge much, the work is hard and hot, and virtually all the money goes to the guy owning the the lawn mowers and truck.

 

[KevinNM]

I just called Katie at GUE to confirm. Yes. I do not have a GUE-F card. I have Tech 1 and Tech 2. There is a note from Bob Sherwood saying I completed a GUE-F evaluation with Ed Hayes who granted me a tech pass. But, yeah, they have no official certification processed so they cannot issue me a GUE-F certification card. Katie said, "Back then it was a different time. The organization would not do that today."

You can take a tech course without fundamentals as long as an IE will give you permission. They can give you a pass on pretty much any prerequisite. But my class with Mark suggested that they generally are not easy graders.

Someone here mentioned they got into Tech 2 without Tech 1 via that route.

 

[Compressor]

To the beginners reading this thread and those considering picking up SCUBA: There are many great instructors who will teach you safe and sound diving. They will go out of their way to teach you diving, a sport that will bring you many years of joy and happiness. Seek them out from whatever agency they may be from.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

What are the best practices recommended by GUE that, according to your experience, should be incorporated into the basic open water courses of all the other dive programs around the world.

What dive programs have already incorporated some or most of these aspects ?

Are there dive programs that are superior to GUE in terms of diver safety and anticipation of potential problems ?

Wow! Geez! I'm getting old. I cannot believe that I forgot this had already successfully been done!

Marcus Werneck, the director of PDIC Brasil, and my brother from another mother, was a GUE tech and cave IT at the time. He spent a fortune creating OW, AOW, specialty, wreck diving and trimix manuals for PDIC Brasil. They were beautiful, full-color, and featured play be play photos and precision illustrations of teamwork. Rodrigo Thome was the key to these amazing publications which also had deep stop tables and a myriad of bells and whistles. They didn't skimp. They challenged most PADI manuals (the produced that many manuals and courses) in quality design and tackled similar subject matter but with a DIR twist. Unfortunately, they were written in Portugese so I only got the $2.00 tour when I had Team Brasil interpret sections that interested me. Marcus wanted PDIC to make him the international training director and export all of this to PDIC globally. PDIC HQ didn't share Marcus' vision. A heated exchange in a hotel room at DEMA (I was present and in support of Marcus) found PDIC throwing Marcus out of the organization. They basically committed agency suicide after that and sold the agency to Tom Leaird of SEI. Today, PDIC exists, but it has been relegated to an SEI twin. Marcus was the point of the spear and he would have beaten both GUE and UTD to the punch on a well-developed recreational path. It's a shame. PDIC could have been an industry leader in the very subject matter about which the OP sought opinions. Marcus changed careers and became highly successful in the financial/wealth management world. The president of PDIC, Frank Murphy, found Marcus working in a dive shop in Brasil as a teen and took him under his wing. Unfortunately, Frank had passed away and Doris and Mel didn't understand the extraordinary effort he put into taking an agency from a 1950's mentality and propelling it into the current century ahead of all the rest concerning recreational diver training. It was DIR for the masses where the standards allowed divers to begin to develop themselves, skill by skill, level by level, taking them on a far less stressful training journey toward tech perfection.

While it was a success from a development standpoint, it failed to launch because PDIC killed it. He had already proved the concept in Brasil. His recreational divers were awesome. I miss Marcus and the PDIC that we knew together and could have known.


Translation of text accompanying the video: Marcus Werneck is a recognized professional instructor in the recreational and technical diving sectors. He was the first to prepare and publish a wide range of didactic material in Portuguese for the training of recreational divers. He is responsible for the training of many instructors currently in business.

 

[kafkaland]

Back to the original question: Two things I think other agencies could learn from GUE are attention to the QA process, and the insistence that their instructors are excellent divers. But of course having outstanding diving skills is only part of being a great instructor, teaching skills are just as important. And I'm not convinced that GUE is at the leading edge of that.